Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

‘@Stripesnomore those are red herrings. The Muslim council of Britain said there was nothing offensive in the materials. You have been unable to point to anything specific that you think is controversial.’

As I have said, there are multiple threads about this that go over the controversies. I am not going to rehash them on here as you bringing this issue up is a derailment.

No Outsiders is linked to Prevent. That is in your link. That is hugely controversial.

The interview you linked to is a year old, before the legal changes. I am not a Muslim so I don’t care whether or not an interview published on the Muslim Council website approves of it or not.

The horrible, horrible beheading is devastating for that teacher’s friends, families and pupils. It is terrifying for teachers and an attack on education and free speech. It should be made clear that as a society we stand up for free speech and religious freedom, including the freedom to mock other people’s religious beliefs.

You taking a bunch of events out of context - no outsiders, colonisation of Ireland etc totally out of context is just misrepresenting and over simplifying political events. It is about your dislike of religion not about your defence of free speech.

In the mean time, several Muslim countries are boycotting French products in protest of the government's response.

@LaChatte

In the mean time, several Muslim countries are boycotting French products in protest of the government's response.

Oh noes.

And the Turkish president is questioning Macron's mental health. I really don't like where this is going, a fair few of my pupils are Turkish.

I said I’d leave this thread, but anyway it has to said the Turkish president was just using freedom of speech.
The last time French products have been boycotted was when they were testing nuclear weapons on their colonies back in 1996 so there is obviously some concern about what France is going to do to it’s Muslim community.

I doubt they'd use nuclear weapons.

Freedom of speech needs to be accompanied with freedom of opportunity. Otherwise it can be used by the dominant community to “other” and justify the inequality.

Freedom of speech makes sense among equals. Where both sides can argue equally. That’s one of the reasons why freedom of speech is restricted in schools and workplaces. Because these are inherently not level playing fields and one group exercising their freedom of expression (eg teachers, managers) may result in others (some students, employees) feeling intimidated and unable to exercise their freedom of speech and provide an alternative perspective.

What about outside of work and school?

With SM if you raise a point of view, outside of work that is at odds with or something your employer disliked then there is a possibility that you could lose your job

I said we didn’t have freedom of speech in this country. Then people took it to mean that those coming into the country weren’t able to express themselves.
On the other side I think those that were born and raised in this country aren’t actually able to express how they truly feel.

The fact that we don’t say anything because we can’t doesn’t as stairway thinks that everyone is happy and multiculturalism is a success. (That was David Cameron’s mistake)
It just means that people are getting more and more angry and can’t express that anger whilst having ng to keep quiet whilst feeling walked all over.

If you are an adult citizen living in a democratic country you have more rights and freedoms than a schoolchild.

Oliversmumsarmy but people can express their anger about multiculturalism they just come across as a racist or islamophobe. Plenty of people expressing their anger in this thread. Our own PM described Muslim women as looking like letter boxes and robbers and he got elected. What do you feel walked over on?

The fact that we don’t say anything because we can’t doesn’t as stairway thinks that everyone is happy and multiculturalism is a success.

I agree. People are unable to voice their unhappiness at the rate of demographic/cultural change without being accused of bigotry - a pretty serious charge that as you say can result in you losing your job/friends etc.

Plenty of people expressing their anger in this thread

An anonymous forum.

Our own PM described Muslim women as looking like letter boxes and robbers and he got elected

And I think this illustrated the gap between the opinions that are 'permitted' and the opinions that a significant number of people actually have 'behind closed doors'.

@mangoesforever

The fact that we don’t say anything because we can’t doesn’t as stairway thinks that everyone is happy and multiculturalism is a success.

I agree. People are unable to voice their unhappiness at the rate of demographic/cultural change without being accused of bigotry - a pretty serious charge that as you say can result in you losing your job/friends etc.

Exactly that

I’m not sure if we live in the same country but that kind of opinion is expressed all the time and not just anonymously. I work in the NHS which is very multicultural as you probably know and yes that kind of opinion would go down like a lead balloon because I think ethnic minorities would find it intimidating/offensive. We live in a multicultural country largely due to colonisation where we invaded the world any then we let the world back in for our own benefit. We have very tight immigration rules currently and I wouldn’t want it to be any harder for families to live together.

@stairway who is it expressed all the time by?
And are they not labelled bigot/racist for doing so?

We live in a multicultural country largely due to colonisation where we invaded the world any then we let the world back in for our own benefit.

You are correct about colonisation, but who did colonisation benefit? Not the working class man on the street - the elites. Who does mass immigration benefit now? Again, it's the elites.

And we had no say in colonialism as we were not there.

The area I've lived in all my life in is changing beyond recognition😞

We have very tight immigration rules currently and I wouldn’t want it to be any harder for families to live together

I don’t think we do live in the same country as our immigration and boarder controls are a joke. They have been a joke since Tony Blair threw open the doors and placed a welcome mat to anyone who wanted to come here.
Conservatives have tried to stem the flow but we are an island 26 miles (rowing distance in a dinghy) from a “campment” with thousands of people who’s sole purpose is to get to the UK

I am from an immigrant family who came to Britain because it was the first country that could offer them safety.
If that country had been France or Holland then I would have grown up French or Dutch. There wasn’t any reason to get to the UK other than safety.

Why aren’t these asylum seekers claiming asylum in France, Spain, Italy or Greece or even Germany.
Why do a core think only Britain will do.

We encouraged mass immigration because we wanted workers with various skills which benefitted everybody. The problems with distribution of wealth in this country is not the fault of immigrants. During the brexit campaign there was a lot of anti immigration rhetoric from politicians and the media. It seems the main reason we are leaving the EU is because of anti immigration sentiment. It’s likely everyone in the UK will suffer from this decision ( except the elite)

'It just means that people are getting more and more angry and can’t express that anger whilst having ng to keep quiet whilst feeling walked all over.'

You don't speak for me or many others there.

There are many who resist change and who secretly harbour views that are no longer considered socially acceptable. Twas ever thus.

Over time and with education and experience those views often change.

There has been an incredibly shift in attitudes towards homosexuality in the last twenty years.

My former in laws, conservative and fairly uneducated, considered homosexuality to be wrong and unspoken about, then kept their views to themselves and now openly talk about whether one of their grandsons may be gay and why can't he just come out if so. This shift in one lifetime is extraordinary.

Same with smoking.

Same with immigration.

Where there is genuine multi-culturalism, attitudes shift.

There are belief systems that are just as divisive as religious or cultural ones. I am friends with practising Catholics, Muslims, Tories and Brexiteers although they have some beliefs and values which will never be truly compatible with mine.

@Stripesnomore context is neither here nor there.

White Christians are as capable and culpable of terrorism as are Islamicists. Context is no more or less important in the murder of Jo Cox by a white supremicist or IRA bombings or reprisal killings than the murder of the teacher in France.

I don’t think people crossing the channel in dinghies is the main reason for mass immigration. Student visas was an easy way to get into the country although that has been cut down too. I think most people come over with family visas. I really don’t like the idea of separating families and stopping people marrying who they want to.

We encouraged mass immigration because we wanted workers with various skills which benefitted everybody.

That's an opinion. There are many accounts and statistics that contradict this, though it's not socially acceptable to highlight this.

Right, if this is becoming an anti-immigration thread I'm bowing out now.