Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

I’m sorry but the Muslim world has a long way to go before it is historically as bad as some countries in Europe have been including the UK

She says this as they're stoning rape victims to death and throwing gays off of roof tops. Hysterical.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HistoryoffslaveryinntheMuslimm_world

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire

Someone commits a murder only people associated with that murder should be punished not everyone who happens to share the same religion.

No one is punishing everyone who is Muslim. You have some very warped and biased views. You refuse to accept the religion has faults, which is very illogical considering you say you're not a Muslim.

Let’s ask the Christians living in the Muslim world how tolerant and peace loving, and multicultural it is there....

Oh wait.... the persecution of them has been described as a genocide ffs.

I’m sure stairway will justify this somehow, by bringing up the crusades or something, so let’s get it in now.

Conversion therapy by way of mass murder is reprehensible.

Terrorist attacks are extremely rare compared to lets say non terror related stabbings

Non terror related stabbings is hardly something to compare to - it is absolutely rife in this country these days.

To describe terrorist attacks as rare in the UK is a perfect demonstration of how warped your views on this are.

I wonder if Stairways would advocate for a multicultural Middle East with millions of Europeans moving there to diversify the culture?

Some views (not related to free speech or terrorism) on this thread that are being disguised as “concern” are absolutely abhorrent.

It’s reading as if history is starting to repeat itself.

I’ve never said I wasn’t a Muslim, but I don’t really feel comfortable discussing my religious views on here as some people come across a little hostile and I wouldn’t want to be judged because of my religion. I’m finding this thread a little exhausting. Why would I support persecution of religious minorities in Muslim countries when I’m in favour of multiculturalism and tolerance and not collective blame based on someone’s ethnic minority or religion. All I ask of people on this thread is to not to blame a religion that 1.9 billion people follow for individual terror offences. I’m going to sign off now.

These kind of murders are rarely brought up again and again.

Obviously you realise that a murder such as Samuel Paty's is going to get brought up A LOT precisely because it is so incredibly disturbing for a number of reasons and because it is emblematic of an ongoing domestic terrorism situation.

2 women are murdered every week and no is suggesting all men are collectively punished.

I agree with this. Collective punishment is a horrible, racist and massively unjust idea. I don't agree with you, though, that Muslims are being collectively punished. In the example given of the CCCI, it reads to me as that this organisation is being told not to advise people that discussing, criticising or satirising Islam is racist and phobic. So in other words, they should have explained to the parent that the teacher was just doing his job and the father's only option would be to remove his child from the class where the teacher discusses such issues. Unless I've missed something here, I don't see this as collectively punishing Muslims.

Let's all agree that no decent person wants innocent Muslims to suffer because of something that a small group of insane people did. I do not doubt that there are grotesque racists out there who do not need a reason to intensify their violence and harrassment against Muslims, and those people are rightly considered to be extremely racist, violent, stupid and criminal. I think it's going to be a long time before we will be able to quantify all the different harms and problems this horrific, evil murder has spawned. And that is of course exactly what it was intended to do: cause maximum damage, maximum pain, maximum terror, and maximum division and anger between Muslims and non-Muslims.

But ordinary people in France are not wanting to harm Muslims in retaliation, that's not what the speeches and protests are about. What they want is to see their right to free expression being re-stated and re-affirmed at all levels of society. They are expressing that they believe free speech to be not only an inalienable right of every French citizen (which includes Muslims), but also an essential component of the country's democratic values and vision of itself. Remember France's history of revolution was based on the core values of Liberty, Fraternity and Equality, which is now France's motto. Liberty = freedom, such as the freedom to say things that other people don't agree with or don't want you to say. They are expressing that "terrorists cannot take away our rights". The cartoons projected on town halls etc are not intended to upset Muslims, but to express that they are not afraid and that they will not be terrorised into submitting to values that they do not share. They are saying, "we are not going to give up our right to freedom of speech." Samuel Paty had his life taken in one of the most horrifying ways anyone can imagine, because he exercised a basic right that is enshrined in the French constitution, that arose from a violent history and was won for all French citizens. And so they are saying "je suis Samuel" I am Samuel to express their solidarity and their love.

It shouldn't be read as racist provocation. To do so is inflammatory and it's just not necessary. The whole point is that we want freedom of speech so that we can resolve differences and make progress by talking, not killing.

' and actually all cultures, particularly the UK, have always been multi-cultural.

That's factually incorrect'

Well, that's just silly. The United Kingdom (clue in the name) is made up of extremely, extremely different cultures, indeed and indeed often conflicting countries, i.e. Scotland. We are a mixture of Anglo Saxons, Vikings, Romans, Celts, Normans. We colonised and have mixed with Australians, Indians, Americans, Canadians etc. We encouraged immigrants from the Caribbean in the 60s....

There are as many tensions between 'indigenous' people within the UK - northern Ireland, class differences, north and south, men and women, gay, straight, trans, far right, far left... - as there between different religions.

The recent execution in France was horrific but let's get some perspective. The murder of Jo Cox by a white extremist was no better.

Such extremist violence does not represent all Muslims or all Christians and cannot be used to argue that multi-culturalism doesn't work any more than male violence against women (much more frequent in all cultures including in the UK than conflict between cultures) can be used to argue men and women can't live together.

And just look at the history of Ireland where conflict is likely to reemerge as a consequence of Brexit (also an example of intracultural conflict) if you want to suggest that white Christians are peaceable as opposed to these pesky Muslims. To be honest there are some posts on here that are starting to look like racism.

@nostaples

And just look at the history of Ireland where conflict is likely to reemerge as a consequence of Brexit (also an example of intracultural conflict) if you want to suggest that white Christians are peaceable as opposed to these pesky Muslims. To be honest there are some posts on here that are starting to look like racism.

Racism is directed against a race, not a religion. Lazy attempt to shut down a conversation.

This started on freedom of speech.

I think there is evidence in the OP and other posters that the execution of the French teacher is being used to argue against free speech on the grounds that it can offend (Muslims) which can lead to extremist retaliation, which in turn leads to white retaliation against Muslims. This argument is couched as being in favour of freedom of speech but it isn't or at least it only is in so far as it doesn't offend Muslims.

I think we all agree that the murder of the French teacher is wrong.

I'm not sure how much further we can go with it.

I do think education (and multi-cultural education not schools split along faith lines which was widely understood to be a factor behind the race riots in Oldham at the end of the last century) is the answer.

I think it is up to indigenous people to model democratic values and tolerance and to befriend immigrants. And I am concerned that there is evidence of intolerance and prejudice on this thread coming from both sides.

The issues are simple. In the UK and France you can mock and lampoon the Prophet and Jesus and anyone else you like. Those not happy with that in the UK can always home educate their children or not allow them access to the internet or move to countries where that kind of satire is not allowed.

@silentpool I think there is racism here now as well as anti-islamic/ anti-relgious feeling.

I'm signing off the thread now. To compare the 'cultural differences' of the last 50 or so years - even the huge increase in the number of immigrants from very different cultures since the 90s/tony Blair - to the previous few thousands years in the UK is just dishonest and agenda driven.

@Xenia that is unhelpful. Home education/ faith education and madrasas and parallel communities exacerbate ignorance and prejudice.

@mangoesforever it is NOT dishonest. There is religious conflict going on right now in Ireland and very recent brutal killings and reprisals.

I support the right for people to have very different views as long as they do not expect everyone else to share them. I don't want a one size fits all standard view like North Korea or a communist state. So I suppose home education which our Queen had by the way and all sorts.

One of the most disturbing things I've watched on the news in recent years is children being forced to walk to school among the most appalling religious tribalism in northern island as recently as 2001. The Catholic church has a very murky history of appalling brutality towards unmarried mothers and their babies and gay people. And C of E churches have been in the news only this week for covering up paedophiles operating within the church. I know I'm changing my tune a bit here but I don't like the smell of hypocrisy.

Likewise @Xenia but views need airing and challenging not hiding away and feeding.

Just for clarity I am against all religions. They breed ignorance and division.

@nostaples you're confusing religious organisations' wrongdoings with cultural differences.

I am fully aware of the crimes of Christian churches towards their own communities children and never disputed that.

Also aware of the troubles in Ireland....

It IS dishonest to compare differences/clashes between Christian sects and the four nations within the UK as comparable to the differences in culture between, for example, the UK and Saudi Arabia or Somalia.

‘These kind of murders are rarely brought up again and again.

Obviously you realise that a murder such as Samuel Paty's is going to get brought up A LOT precisely because it is so incredibly disturbing for a number of reasons and because it is emblematic of an ongoing domestic terrorism situation.

2 women are murdered every week and no is suggesting all men are collectively punished.

I agree with this. Collective punishment is a horrible, racist and massively unjust idea. I don't agree with you, though, that Muslims are being collectively punished. In the example given of the CCCI, it reads to me as that this organisation is being told not to advise people that discussing, criticising or satirising Islam is racist and phobic. So in other words, they should have explained to the parent that the teacher was just doing his job and the father's only option would be to remove his child from the class where the teacher discusses such issues. Unless I've missed something here, I don't see this as collectively punishing Muslims.

Let's all agree that no decent person wants innocent Muslims to suffer because of something that a small group of insane people did. I do not doubt that there are grotesque racists out there who do not need a reason to intensify their violence and harrassment against Muslims, and those people are rightly considered to be extremely racist, violent, stupid and criminal. I think it's going to be a long time before we will be able to quantify all the different harms and problems this horrific, evil murder has spawned. And that is of course exactly what it was intended to do: cause maximum damage, maximum pain, maximum terror, and maximum division and anger between Muslims and non-Muslims.

But ordinary people in France are not wanting to harm Muslims in retaliation, that's not what the speeches and protests are about. What they want is to see their right to free expression being re-stated and re-affirmed at all levels of society. They are expressing that they believe free speech to be not only an inalienable right of every French citizen (which includes Muslims), but also an essential component of the country's democratic values and vision of itself. Remember France's history of revolution was based on the core values of Liberty, Fraternity and Equality, which is now France's motto. Liberty = freedom, such as the freedom to say things that other people don't agree with or don't want you to say. They are expressing that "terrorists cannot take away our rights". The cartoons projected on town halls etc are not intended to upset Muslims, but to express that they are not afraid and that they will not be terrorised into submitting to values that they do not share. They are saying, "we are not going to give up our right to freedom of speech." Samuel Paty had his life taken in one of the most horrifying ways anyone can imagine, because he exercised a basic right that is enshrined in the French constitution, that arose from a violent history and was won for all French citizens. And so they are saying "je suis Samuel" I am Samuel to express their solidarity and their love.

It shouldn't be read as racist provocation. To do so is inflammatory and it's just not necessary. The whole point is that we want freedom of speech so that we can resolve differences and make progress by talking, not killing.’

What an excellent post, QueenofKnives.