Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

It seems to be too much give from the host countries in some cases

I said it in another thread also, that radical Islam is a far-right ideology. The same reason young Muslims get radicalised is the same why young white men are radicalised into neo-nazism. Both are far right.

I agree. And jews in western countries are targeted by both of these groups. Something I often see ignored.

But multiculturalism does work. Communities in the UK live peacefully together when they respect each other. Fortunately there aren’t many extremists ( white supremicists or religious extremists) terrorist attacks are extremely rare but always become frontline news. Id far rather live in a multicultural society then a monocultural society.

Anyway if you don’t want to live in a multicultural society what do you actually suggest. start deporting people who don’t live and think like you want them too? What if they were born here. Maybe go down the French route and try and force everyone to have the same values ( that’s clearly going well)
Nostaples If the CCIF told the parent to complain what’s wrong with that, they didn’t tell him to go and behead the teacher. Are you now suggesting that Muslims aren’t allowed to complain anymore?

But multiculturalism does work. Communities in the UK live peacefully together when they respect each other

The fact we don’t have freedom of speech in this country means you can’t actually say that.

People might be silent but given the shock of the Brexit vote shouldn’t that tell you something isn’t working.

What’s not working exactly?

@stairway

But multiculturalism does work. Communities in the UK live peacefully together when they respect each other. Fortunately there aren’t many extremists ( white supremicists or religious extremists) terrorist attacks are extremely rare but always become frontline news. Id far rather live in a multicultural society then a monocultural society.

It works when the incomers try to fit in with the values of their hosts. But if I lived in Rotherham I wouldn't be feeling warm and fuzzy about it. Because one side thought they had friends and boyfriends - the other saw it very fucking differently. And it's STILL happening in many many places.

I live in a multicultural area and it's not the utopia you want to paint it as. I see people refusing to engage and actively keeping themselves apart. Which would be fine if it didn't produce such dysfunctional children. All those boys brought up as little princes then not being able to fit in with a world that doesn't see them as kings. Their anger at not being important just for being alive plays out every day.

I see shady 'businesses' and corruption. Crime and money laundering disguised as takeaways etc. Men hanging around in packs in the day doing nothing. Women who are one of several wives with tons of children living in fsmily homes in very expensive areas being paid for entirely by the tax payer.

Check out the number of people in prison and their makeup. You'll find a lot of non UK born there. Muslims.

If you think that all Muslims in the UK are ok with us you are very wrong. I've read a number of books and articles by Muslims that have broken rank and been very clear about the overall views amongst immigrant Muslims towards UK citizens. We are kaffirs. There to use, and con, and fuck.

I really wish that it was just a different religion and we could all just be ok. But that's not the reality.

@stairway

Anyway if you don’t want to live in a multicultural society what do you actually suggest. start deporting people who don’t live and think like you want them too? What if they were born here. Maybe go down the French route and try and force everyone to have the same values ( that’s clearly going well) Nostaples If the CCIF told the parent to complain what’s wrong with that, they didn’t tell him to go and behead the teacher. Are you now suggesting that Muslims aren’t allowed to complain anymore?

Are you actually joking?

You’d have a point if this thread was about complaints towards a teacher.

But it isn’t.

This thread isn’t over a complaint is it? It’s over a fucking beheading

What the actual fuck?

And multiculturalism demonstrably doesn’t work.
You can stick your head in the sand, and think it does, but then it’ll only end up you and your social bubble hand wringing about how could people vote for the tories?
How could people vote for Brexit etc.

I’d add ‘how could someone incite murder because of a satirical cartoon’ to the list, but there seems to be a certain blasé attitude around that one. Because offence. Or summat

@stairway

What’s not working exactly?

I can only presume you’re being disingenuous here.

The CCIF has no idea that a teacher would be beheaded, how could they have known? Terrorism like that is rare. Islamophobic incidents are a constant in France. A parent in France contacted them and said a teacher was showing the pupils a cartoon about Mohammed he found offensive and they advices him to complain. This is what normal civilised people do. The parent then went on to do something worse which they didn’t tell him to do. So why is it their fault. It is this collective blame theory again. It’s like if someone was being bullied at school, you would say go and complain and if they student then went and stabbed someone it wouldn’t be your fault at all.
I’m still not getting what not working in our society. I’m a bit thick so if you could explain it to me that would help.

I don't agree that multi-culturalism doesn't work and actually all cultures, particularly the UK, have always been multi-cultural.

I think there are some religious and cultural differences which are irreconcilable and whereas British Christians have become increasingly secular or, where they continue to have a faith, increasingly selective such that they do not take the Bible literally and pick and choose the values that are conducive to their lives in a 21st century democracy, often Muslims are more rigid and more literal.

By and large such differences can be kept under the surface and we are sensitive to each others' differences and values we hold dear. We recognise that as Jo Cox famously said 'we have more in common than that which divide us' however sometimes, in extreme circumstances, as in this beheading or as in the changes to sex education they erupt.

I think it is healthy to have debates and to talk about differneces. With education and debate we will increasingly share values. And the evidence is all around us, for example, in the enormous shift in attitudes to women and marriage. There will always be throwbacks, as there are in any culture and religion but that does not negate the incredible friendships that have been made.

My children went to v v multi-cultural schools and always had Muslim friends, more so than most white children. I always got on well with their parents. But dd1 did come home from school when she was v young saying that her Muslim friends had told her she would burn in Hell as she was an atheist. We talked about it and she learned various ways of challenging these attitudes as she got older. Either her Muslim friends change their minds or learned not to articulate such views.

She's now 19 and one of her best friends is a Muslim whom she has known since she was 3 but quite a liberal one. There will be always be some irroncileably different beliefs but they are v respectful and love and support each other.

Fortunately there aren’t many extremists ( white supremicists or religious extremists) terrorist attacks are extremely rare but always become frontline news.

Eh?! Extremely rare??

and actually all cultures, particularly the UK, have always been multi-cultural.

That's factually incorrect

@stairway it's not about the CCIF knowing he would be beheaded.

It seems France is set to reject the term 'Islamophobia' - they are saying it is being used disingenuously to protect Islamic Separatism and the CCIF actively encourage this.

@nostaples

My children went to v v multi-cultural schools and always had Muslim friends, more so than most white children. I always got on well with their parents. But dd1 did come home from school when she was v young saying that her Muslim friends had told her she would burn in Hell as she was an atheist. We talked about it and she learned various ways of challenging these attitudes as she got older. Either her Muslim friends change their minds or learned not to articulate such views.

My friend works in a school in Newham. She was told at Christmas that everyone who sings the ‘star’ song is a Christian who will burn in the hellfire. By a five year old.

To pretend this doesn’t happen is delusional.

To try and justify it as way of protecting innocent Muslims from retaliation, means your complicit. You’re apathy and misplaced protection of innocent Muslims allows extremism to thrive.

Re: multiculturalism, and our society not working.
How can it?
Some beliefs can coexist together peacefully, without making any difference.

Some beliefs are diametrically opposed.

They simply cannot coexist.

Therefore who decides which ones are palatable? Who decides which ones are intolerant? Who decides which ones are worthy of respect?

You?

Who is the moral arbitrator here, and by what right did they gain this power?

nostaples
Sorry, I’ve just realised that I used your post to make my point, the went off to make a different point.

The questions aren’t aimed at you, it’s a general you, not you specifically!

Doesn't bode well for the future does it. Just wait until people with these kind of extremist opinions become the majority. Terrifying if you are a woman, gay, Jewish, Hindu, Atheist or believe in free speech etc.

Terrorist attacks are extremely rare compared to lets say non terror related stabbings, parents killing their children/partners etc drug murders domestic murders etc. These kind of murders are rarely brought up again and again. 2 women are murdered every week and no is suggesting all men are collectively punished. There have also been terrorist attacks against Muslims as well due to islamophobia. Unfortunately children do say horrible things to each other, racist/intolerant things etc but again why collectively blame one group? What about all the islamophobic things said to Muslim children or all the racists things regularly said? Teach mutual respect and we don’t have to force everyone to think and believe the same thing.

Right, so it’s ‘of course multiculturalism works, because everyone should be nice and kind’.

With a sprinkling of ‘let’s not try and sort out this established problem, because other problems exist too’

Brilliant

multiculturalism does work, no one on this thread as given any credible evidence that it doesn’t, all I’ve seen as evidence is what a 5 year old apparently said. I see no Justification in punishing the whole Muslim community. Someone commits a murder only people associated with that murder should be punished not everyone who happens to share the same religion.The world has already experienced the effect of European colonisation, it was pretty awful, some are still suffering the effects as well as recent foreign conflicts destabilising their countries. I’m sorry but the Muslim world has a long way to go before it is historically as bad as some countries in Europe have been including the UK.

@stairway

multiculturalism does work, no one on this thread as given any credible evidence that it doesn’t, all I’ve seen as evidence is what a 5 year old apparently said. I see no Justification in punishing the whole Muslim community. Someone commits a murder only people associated with that murder should be punished not everyone who happens to share the same religion.The world has already experienced the effect of European colonisation, it was pretty awful, some are still suffering the effects as well as recent foreign conflicts destabilising their countries. I’m sorry but the Muslim world has a long way to go before it is historically as bad as some countries in Europe have been including the UK.

Have you lived in a Muslim country, Stairway? Seem to have a very rosy view. Can you explain why so many refugees come to imperfect UK/Europe from these places?

@stairway you are talking absolute crap. Do you know anything about Muslim history, the Ottoman Empire. They used to cut the testicles off of all their slaves because they didn't want them to 'breed'.

You haven't got a clue.

www.dw.com/en/east-africas-forgotten-slave-trade/a-50126759