Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

I just find it hard to believe that they were asking for the guy to be killed, seems so over the top.

Well, radical Islam is basically the definition of "over-the-top".

Seriously, why would the parent have circulated a video naming the teacher and the school's location if he didn't want someone to attack him? He knew perfectly well how Muslim extremists have reacted to cartoons of Muhammad in the past.

@Trut
yes it is very scary indeed.
Especially when those who decide to "avenge the prophet" have no fear of being killed by the bomb/by police after the murder because they will be rewarded in heaven with 72 virgins. How do you stop people who don't fear death?

@stairway

There is islamophobia on this thread you just can’t see it. I could point it out but you still wouldn’t see it. There are people who use their freedom of speech to mock and ridicule others, sometimes they go further and encourage hatred towards another group and try to reinforce stereotypes.

Can we agree to stop using that silly expression? I have a phobia about snakes. I do not have a phobia about normal Muslim people. I am opposed to any kind of religious extremists but not in a silly, hiding under my bed kind of way, which is what that term supposes.

Has the act of terrorism been widely condemned by the Muslim community in France?

Freedom of speech is a privilege many have given their lives for it should be protected at all costs.
Many things offend / insult me but I would defend tooth and nail their right to do so

Islamophobia is the fear of Islam, a religious ideology. It is not a fear of Muslim people who like Islam.
In the same way arachnophobia is the fear of spiders, not the fear of arachnophile people who like spiders.

Mangoes, when I last read in the guardian apparently some parents had called for the teacher to be sacked. And the school/teacher was named, so it could be a community protest (I really don’t know). I just find it hard to believe that they were asking for the guy to be killed, seems so over the top.

None of it, nothing just justifies any of it. He was teaching the curriculum, the same one taught across France.
I loathe those who espouse this fundamentalist philosophy.

I've learned to read more widely than the Guardian.

There has been some mixed messaging about what happened.

As the enquiry now stands, the teacher stated that he didn't ask pupils to leave the room or to identify themselves (aka othering). He said they should look away if they thought they might be offended, as he was going to show caricatures.

The pupil whose father took to social media wasn't there that day and in her report gave the wrong date for the class in question. She had already been disciplined for various issues (lateness, absences).

Her father posted on social media that Samuel Paty was a voyou (yob/lout/thug) and should be fired, and he suggested people should contact him to determine what action to take.
(Teachers are civil servants in France: they're not fired from a post, but fired for good, pending various lengthy legal procedures to be reinstated).

The father in question accused Samuel Paty of child pornography, for showing a caricature of Mohammed with bare buttocks. Samuel Paty then began proceedings for defamation/slander in response to those allegations.

Samuel Paty's name was put out on social media, along with the address of the school where he taught, and the French gvmt have described the calls to action as a fatwa.

The killer, who had no links to the town, school or Samuel Paty, exchanged text messages with the father. He bribed pupils to point Paty out to him. He was in contact with Abdelhakim Sefrioui, a radical preacher and activist, and with 2 jihadist fighters in Idlib.

No teacher should ever be decapitated, or fear being decapitated, in the street for defending freedom of speech. I'll just repeat that, in case...

I agree no teacher should be decapitated for any reason, just like no one should be stabbed because they are Arab Muslim. If you look at the daily mail comments about the stabbing there are people who say that it’s justified because Muslims started it. Now is that freedom of speech? The problem isn’t the religion despite people who know nothing about the religion suggesting it. The problem is extremists. The French government need to find a way of tackling extremists without marginalising the Muslim community. The way they are going about it will have the opposite effect.

The muslim community, also need to work together to prevent/ discourage extremism and report where necessary. I can't believe that nobody has any inkling about these very disturbed, violent individuals.

The actual killer was Russian and had only committed minor offences previously. It seems he appeared from nowhere.

But the man who started the campaign against the teacher was a parent and he shared his messages in the community at his mosque.
The correct way for a concerned parent to deal with the school would have been to make an appointment to see the principal.

I think it was reported that he put it on facebook.

Charlie Hebdo are perfectly justified in mocking any and all religions. I have yet to see a satirist beheading someone, so I know where my support is going. We have abolished blasphemy in this country and we must resist the attempts to bring it back by main stream muslim organisations. I would be the first to defend the right of someone to follow any faith they choose, no matter how ridiculous, but don't start demanding privileges for that belief. No, you dont get to be homophobic, misogynistic or demand that the curriculum be tailored to match the beliefs of a so called holy book, especially given that the bible and Koran are equally immoral.

What is more important reducing extremism or the right to print whatever you want? I also don’t understand why people are so keen on here about publishing something that offends so many people. Part of the reason islamophobia is so common is because people get their knowledge of Islam from the media. Freedom of speech comes with responsibility as it can seriously harm as well. If I was Macron I would want the media to tone down references to Islam that promotes racism and islamophobia I would also want the media to not print inflammatory cartoons.

So you think people should be censored to appease extremists.

Part of the reason islamophobia is so common is because people get their knowledge of Islam from the media

You mean the reporting of beheading a teacher or the murder of a bunch of cartoonists

Macron should not be censoring people.

Are you someone who argues that a woman dresses modestly otherwise she is asking to be attacked.

@stairway

you're part of the problem.

@Moonmelodies

Islamophobia is the fear of Islam, a religious ideology. It is not a fear of Muslim people who like Islam. In the same way arachnophobia is the fear of spiders, not the fear of arachnophile people who like spiders.

Are there' phobias for all the religions or just this one? If it is to do with the ideology itself, how do you actually go about having a phobia about it? I do fine dealing with Muslims, regularly walk post the local mosque without breaking down, my parents were expats in 2 Muslim countries, still fine. When does this fear kick in? Or is it a method of shutting down conversation about extremism? Ask any hard questions and then the phobia kicks in?

I think with social media, we probably need to re-examine boundaries about free speech and hate speech. Last year the UN published something quite interesting on what is hate speech. A quote from their publication

“What is hate speech?
There is no international legal definition of hate speech, and the characterization of what is ‘hateful’ is controversial and disputed. In the context of this document, the term hate speech is understood as any kind of communication in speech, writing or behaviour, that attacks or uses pejorative or discriminatory language with reference to a person or a group on the basis of who they are, in other words, based on their religion, ethnicity, nationality, race, colour, descent, gender or other identity factor. This is often rooted in, and generates intolerance and hatred and, in certain contexts, can be demeaning and divisive.”

I guess with this definition, CH cartoons would be hate speech. (I wonder if parts of DM would be as well. Probably the comments section would be!) obviously none of this justifies violence. We have so many social and legal routes to express our views, and we should be grateful for that.

Personally I avoid mocking someone's religion for the same reason I avoid going around saying things like "That new hairstyle really doesn't suit you" and "Wow, you've put on weight." These things might be true but they're unkind and they very rarely add anything to social discourse.

However, it shouldn't be a hate crime to say things that are rude or unkind. And people who have said unkind and rude things don't deserve to have violence inflicted on them. France is right to be taking a hard line on this one.

I meant to say if based on the UN definition people consider something to be ‘hate speech’ they can protest individually and as a group and explore legal routes. There is no need to resort to violence.

Well, kokeshi, religion is a protected characteristic, hair isn’t. But I agree that we should emphasises kindness more.

The UN definition made me pause and my first reaction was that a lot of comedy and satire would fall under their definition. And then I thought about my fav cartoon “Matt” in the telegraph and couldn’t remember anything there that could be considered hate speech. Although it can be cutting and funny. I think we have great humour here in UK although it does border on being misogynistic sometimes.

stairway what are your views on Muslim satirists who have been murdered, improsoned, tortured because of their work? Why do you think they continue despite great risk to themselves?

Nobody anywhere should ever be excusing or justifying beheading someone in the street.