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Original poster

Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

973 replies

Icantthinkofabettername · 17/10/2020 08:57

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

OP posts:
stairway · 22/10/2020 11:01

There is islamophobia on this thread you just can’t see it. I could point it out but you still wouldn’t see it. There are people who use their freedom of speech to mock and ridicule others, sometimes they go further and encourage hatred towards another group and try to reinforce stereotypes.

queenofknives · 22/10/2020 11:07

There is islamophobia on this thread you just can’t see it. I could point it out but you still wouldn’t see it.

Why wouldn't I? I'm not stupid or so entrenched in a view that I can't take in evidence. Please point it out to me so I can see it, if it's there.

There are people who use their freedom of speech to mock and ridicule others, sometimes they go further and encourage hatred towards another group and try to reinforce stereotypes.

Well yes, that's true but I don't see your point. A) that's got nothing to do with this poor teacher, and just sounds like victim-blaming, which definitely IS all over this thread - you Stairway have been one of the biggest perpetuators of victim blaming; and B) as discussed, freedom of speech is for everyone - people have the right to say things which mock others, and we are also free to mock them in return. We are not free, or justified, to kill people who mock us. That surely is a basic principle. What don't you get about it?

nostaples · 22/10/2020 11:13

You cannot control what somebody else finds offensive.

Just thinking of some of the recent satire of Christianity e.g the Piss Christ and a Mapplethorpe crucifix. Then there's also The Book of Mormon which I actually found offensive because of its presentation of Africa.

No beheadings there.

Irrational and violent responses to freedom of speech or satire really just reinforces the need for satire and the fact that the ideology being satirised is rigid and oppressive.

MillieVanilla · 22/10/2020 11:17

Sorry but are you on glue?
The journalists were murdered.
The teacher was beheaded because one child "accidentally" (yeah right) stayed behind when he told them to leave. As a result her scummy parents demanded retribution.
They have no right to go in on morality when some will take a man out in the street and behead him
They're argument falls down from that point onwards.

MoonJelly · 22/10/2020 11:17

There's no Islamophobia on this thread that I have seen. It's not Islamophobic to defend people's right to free speech.

Seriously? You can't have read the thread properly. Though I'm glad to note the worst one was deleted.

queenofknives · 22/10/2020 11:25

@MoonJelly

There's no Islamophobia on this thread that I have seen. It's not Islamophobic to defend people's right to free speech.

Seriously? You can't have read the thread properly. Though I'm glad to note the worst one was deleted.

Can you point it out to me then please? Just a few quotes will be fine.
nostaples · 22/10/2020 11:27

Not sure how helpful 'phobic' is in this context.

Where there is freedom of speech, you have the right to satirise/ criticise religions/ religious thought.

It is different when this becomes 'hate speech' or 'hate crime' but there are laws to tackle that.

mangoesforever · 22/10/2020 11:36

If Islamophobia includes labelling Conservative Muslims as having a culture which clashes with progressive western liberal values, then yes there's Islamophobia on this thread.

I don't think misogyny and homophobia should be pandered to. I have no tolerance for intolerance and I say the same about anyone who uses ANY religion as an excuse for hatred and oppression. Why should Islam be exempt?

I thought the Charlie Hebdo cartoons being displayed on that gov building in France for four hours last night was brilliant. Good point well made.

queenofknives · 22/10/2020 11:59

If Islamophobia includes labelling Conservative Muslims as having a culture which clashes with progressive western liberal values, then yes there's Islamophobia on this thread.

Well if we change the meaning of words I guess we can "prove" whatever we want to! But in terms of actual Islamophobia, i.e. hatred, prejudice or fear against Muslim people, I'm awaiting the evidence which I am assured will be easy to find as it's apparently all over this thread.

I thought the Charlie Hebdo cartoons being displayed on that gov building in France for four hours last night was brilliant. Good point well made.

I didn't hear about that. That is excellent. What a great message to send.

pointythings · 22/10/2020 13:34

I actually agree with mangoes and knives - just because someone is a conservative Muslim (or Christian, or ultra-orthodox jew) they should not expect to have the right not to be offended. As long as no-one is stirring up hatred, that's where the line is. I am happy to rip the piss out of any religion - and out of dogmatic atheists too.

porridgecake · 22/10/2020 14:01

It was the parent of a student who stirred up a hate campaign against that poor teacher. I hope there will be very serious consequences for that person and their mates.

MillieVanilla · 22/10/2020 14:45

@porridgecake

It was the parent of a student who stirred up a hate campaign against that poor teacher. I hope there will be very serious consequences for that person and their mates.
I do believe the parents were arrested along with others. The father made a viral amongst scumbags video demanding he be dealt with and the French are seeing that as incitement to murder and acts of terrorism. Good on the French.
porridgecake · 22/10/2020 15:10

I am very glad to hear that. France is a secular society. Everyone who lives there needs to accept that. Even refugees who have been given a home.
Beheading an innocent man in the street is barbaric and disgusting. Just shocking.

Trut · 22/10/2020 16:19

@porridgecake

It was the parent of a student who stirred up a hate campaign against that poor teacher. I hope there will be very serious consequences for that person and their mates.
Hmm... when CH rubbishes muslims it is ‘satire’ and ‘free speech’

When people disapprove and ask a teacher to be sacked it is ‘hate speech’

Neither should be responsible for the actions of psychos, unless there are clear rules on what is ‘free speech’ And ‘hate speech’. Is it determined by what randoms do afterwards?

So is it ‘free speech’ to condemn racism but ‘hate speech’ if is used as an excuse for violence afterwards by some trigger happy losers?

Trut · 22/10/2020 16:23

And this is disturbing as well

www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8861799/amp/Paris-attack-Two-Muslim-woman-stabbed-Eiffel-Tower.html

Apologies for DM. Honestly, let’s not dilute free speech from any side (whether the view is resonant or abhorrent) because some people will seize on anything to justify their violent behaviours

Maireas · 22/10/2020 17:07

We have fought long and hard for rights and freedoms that others wish to destroy. I'm glad the French are taking a firm stance against those who hate liberal society.

MillieVanilla · 22/10/2020 17:49

They did NOT ask for him to be sacked.
The police were sufficiently happy to prosecute based on the inflammatory video he made

Why the hell are you trying (and failing) to defend this act of depravity?
What's next, the Manchester bombing was fine because Ariana wears short skirts?
Christ.

mangoesforever · 22/10/2020 18:22

@Trut it was incitement to violence not asking him to be sacked. The father gave the teachers name and location of school in his video, it was widely shared by many in the Muslim community including a mosque.

CH journalists had already been murdered for Islamic blasphemy...they knew exactly what they were doing.

TonTonMacoute · 22/10/2020 19:25

There is nothing, absolutely nothing in a civilised society which justifies people taking the law into their own hands and carrying out the brutal murder of someone who does something you don't like.

Encouraging or inciting someone else to do it is not much better.

It should be made absolutely clear that this will not be tolerated for any reason and anyone who even attempts to defend the most horrendous killings on the grounds that 'Yes, but such and such a thing is really offensive' needs to seriously re-examine their moral compass.

Trut · 22/10/2020 19:52

[quote mangoesforever]@Trut it was incitement to violence not asking him to be sacked. The father gave the teachers name and location of school in his video, it was widely shared by many in the Muslim community including a mosque.

CH journalists had already been murdered for Islamic blasphemy...they knew exactly what they were doing. [/quote]
Mangoes, when I last read in the guardian apparently some parents had called for the teacher to be sacked. And the school/teacher was named, so it could be a community protest (I really don’t know). I just find it hard to believe that they were asking for the guy to be killed, seems so over the top.

I wonder if the barbaric attack hadn't happened, would whatever was said be considered hate speech? Or is it only if someone uses it as an excuse to kill?

When I was at university we had a law course on internet law. It was thought provoking on what constitutes an ‘intent to harm’. So if someone said for example, ‘people who believe in killing animals for pleasure should be on the other side of the gun” would that be considered an intent to harm?

I think there are issues here which should be examined by legal authorities with a cool mind. And I have no doubt in France they will.

That’s stepping back from this particular situation, which is utterly horrifying and deeply saddening in so many ways

LaChatte · 22/10/2020 19:59

The parent said something along the lines of the teacher needed to be dealt with , hang on, I'll have a look to see exactly what was said and report back.

mangoesforever · 22/10/2020 20:14

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-54613565

Father of the student is accused of issuing a fatwa against the teacher, and he was texting the killer directly before the beheading. He knew what he was doing.

Trut · 22/10/2020 20:26

Thanks @mangoesforever, that makes it quite clear then. Really scary and so disproportionate. Surely getting together their community to make a complaint to the Principal, Board of governors or even their MP (if they felt so strongly about it) would suffice?

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