Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

People who are anti-free speech are the enemies of our entire society. If they thought for a moment, they'd realise they are their enemies of even themselves. If we started to believe it was ok to purge those who speak out against our values and attack those who insulted our beliefs, how long before Islam got brutally suppressed in the West? Hope long would the West tolerate it anywhere?

This French Imam is crying out for Muslims to loudly condemn this attack on free speech. He's right, there should be an outpouring of condemnation from their community - but there is not.

@mangoesforever

This French Imam is crying out for Muslims to loudly condemn this attack on free speech. He's right, there should be an outpouring of condemnation from their community - but there is not.

Exactly. This is what I find most chilling.

The loud voices of their community seem to be spending their time condemning the upcoming ' Islamic Separatism' bill which is trying to tackle the issue of growing extremism, and shouting about 'Islamophobia'.

Why aren't they out there in their droves condemning terrorists from their community, who are huge drivers of 'Islamophobia'?

Imams and Muslim organisations loudly and clearly stamping out the idea that you're a good Muslim if you go out and murder 'kafir' (non believers) because it says so in the Koran, would do a huge amount for community/multicultural cohesion.

' I am happy to rip the piss out of any religion - and out of dogmatic atheists too.'

Ha, as a 'dogmatic atheist' feel free to rip away.

I think it should be beholden on anyone who espouses and promotes a particular ideology to expect it to stand up to intellectual scrutiny. When it cannot accept any sort of criticism or questioning then it's a sign (of it being bunkum).

Why should all Muslims be held accountable for this horrific beheading? Do we ask all men to loudly condemn rape when one man does it? Do all white men in the US have to speak out against the actions of the white police officers who committed brutality? Otherwise can we assume they are complicit? Of course not!

I think everyone agrees that violence is not justifiable on any grounds (well, except crazy extremists)

What is free speech vs hate speech and limits to free speech is a discussion that will continue in our legal system in the west and in our communities (obviously in countries which don’t have freedom of speech this is not even up for debate). And it is important that we have these discussions, especially with social media, fake news, online bullying and all the rest.

And I have trust that our legal systems will keep with the times in how hey draw boundaries around freedom of speech. For example, CH have been sued more than 50 times over hate speech (mostly by Christian groups, I think), and the courts have mostly stated that the satire n those instances didn’t cross into incitement.

Now the UN is advocating a more encompassing definition of hate speech. It will be interesting to see how this pans out ( I am mostly interested from a perspective of online porn, violent fantasy forums and violence against women)

@Trut

Polls have shown that a significant minority of Muslims (for example 1in 4 in the uk which amounts to over 500 thousand) believe that terrorist attacks are somewhat justified.

When you have mosques preaching hatred in the community then you have a huge problem.

This needs to be addressed by the loud voices of the community and it is not.

John Stuart Mill said in 1867: “Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”

@porridgecake

John Stuart Mill said in 1867: “Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”

Exactly!!

A huge driving force of 'Islamophobia' is the fact that Islamist terrorist murders are now commonplace (so common that the news headlines quickly move on to something else these days).
Where are the campaigns from Muslim organisations working to root out this growing problem?

I don't think all Muslims should be held accountable for acts of terrorism.

I worry though that even very moderate Muslims and then people of other and no faiths feel that Islam is somehow beyond scrutiny and satire.

What is more important reducing extremism or the right to print whatever you want?
That is a false dichotomy. One does not exclude the other. Extremism should be tackled, and that in no way should infringe on freedom of speech. I don't hold all muslims responsible for the actions of extremists, in the same way that I don't hold all Christian's responsible for the actions of a minority. I don't blame Catholics for the rape and murder of children, but I do blame the catholic church, which is clearly a criminal organisation. Polling has shown consistent support amongst muslim communities for Laws on blasphemy and apostasy and restrictions on free speech when it comes to criticising Islam,none of which are acceptable in a liberal, secular democracy. Have a look at the website of The Council of Ex Muslims for some interesting and insightful views.

I don't think there are many people in this country any way who any longer take Christianity or certainyl what is in the Bible literally even if they have a strong faith.

I think many more Muslims do and that is highly problematic in a multi-cultural 21st century.

I also meant to say that the definition of so called 'hate speech' is utterly ridiculous.

"Do we ask all men to loudly condemn rape when one man does it? Do all white men in the US have to speak out against the actions of the white police officers who committed brutality? Otherwise can we assume they are complicit? Of course not!"

Well, actually...

@porridgecake

"Do we ask all men to loudly condemn rape when one man does it? Do all white men in the US have to speak out against the actions of the white police officers who committed brutality? Otherwise can we assume they are complicit? Of course not!"

Well, actually...

What is free speech vs hate speech and limits to free speech is a discussion that will continue in our legal system in the west and in our communities (obviously in countries which don’t have freedom of speech this is not even up for debate

You do realise that the UK doesn’t have Freedom of Speech.

If you are older and have grown up with certain words that were in everyday use and just what something was called years before you have to check yourself to remember the new word for something.

How many people when talking in a subject matter watch every word they say in case it offends someone.

Talking about free speech in the West doesn’t include the UK.

The problem we have with not having Freedom of Speech is that just because you don’t hear people outside your circle talking about something doesn’t mean the opinions and what people actually think aren’t there otherwise David Cameron would never have proposed the referendum. Gordon Brown wouldn’t have called the lady a bigot when she was just voicing the worries of a lot of people.

When Governments shut down freedom of speech they run the risk of not knowing what their electorate are actually thinking.

Polling has shown consistent support amongst muslim communities for Laws on blasphemy and apostasy and restrictions on free speech when it comes to criticising Islam,none of which are acceptable in a liberal, secular democracy.

And 'Islamophobia' is being used as a blanket ban on criticism.

When Governments shut down freedom of speech they run the risk of not knowing what their electorate are actually thinking.

That's such a good point. However, lately I think the attacks on free speech are not coming so much from the government as from the authoritarian left, i.e. trans rights activists, BLM, other identity politicos, those who claim Islamophobia is the 'real' problem, etc etc. The demands for closing down and curtailing of speech is coming from twitter and being amplified in entertainment companies and in journalism, as well as in education.

I think the government need to to establish the right to free speech in this country, and make it a legal right protected in every walk of life. But the US is having similar problems and their right to speech is enshrined in the constitution. So I don't know what the answer is except we must keep insisting on free speech - without it, we are truly fucked.

The word "phobia" is bandied about an awful lot these days. It means an irrational fear of something that is unlikely to cause harm.
I think most people who are expressing concern about extremism or terrorism are not phobic at all. They are reacting to events and ideologies that are indeed causing harm to innocent people.
Accusing concerned citizens of being phobic is just an attempt to silence them. IMO.

I also don’t understand why people are so keen on here about publishing something that offends so many people.

You know what the koran says about homosexuals, Jews, women and animals is also offensive to so many people. I doubt that you think it should be banned or censored though.

I don’t think it’s correct to hold the Muslim communities (there are many sects of Islam who have differing beliefs) accountable for the acts of extremists. The extremists are not considered Muslims to the vast majority, they are labelled ‘Islamic’ but their actions are so far removed from the teachings of the religion and they have been brainwashed (with an incorrect narration of Islamic history) by some incredibly ignorant, evil people. We are as shocked and disgusted as the rest of the world, but they are not “one of us”. Muslims are verbally abused so often (especially online) that no matter what we say after events such as these, it’s often easier to stay quiet so that we are not linked in anyway to these abhorrent people. We are often angry that they have dared to speak on our religion as a justification for their evil actions.

‘Islamic’ extremists kill many, many more Muslims than non-Muslims. They are not considered Muslim, they are considered evil.

OP you said something about 'oppressed people' earlier, clearly meaning Muslims. If people of that faith, or any other, choose to go and live in a country which has freedom of speech, and values education, then they are not oppressed, and cannot just go around dispensing their own idea of justice. Far from being oppressed, they are perfectly at liberty to go and live in a country which shares their faith - but oddly they don't choose that.

Monstermacs I doubt you know anything about Koran other than what you have read in the daily mail. Censoring a religion would have extreme consequences anyway.
There is a consensus on hear that satire is completely harmless. I think because it appears comical and childish. It isn’t, we know from history that satire was used in 1930s Germany. In the UK I was reading up about the Irish famine and how the UK allowed so many people to starve to death. Satire was used to depict the Irish in a very negative way at the time. Satire is often used in war propaganda too.
The simple solution would be to stop showing these stupid cartoons periodically and in French schools. No other country feels the need to keep showing them. Extremism would decrease and the Muslim community would feel less under attack. The islamophobia is so rife on this thread that some people have suggested if these cartoons are not displayed regularly that France will fall to Sharia law. The hyperbole is ridiculous.

No one said all Muslims are accountable for the terrorists.

We are asking where is the campaigning from Muslim organisations, attempting to root out this problem, calling out the mosques preaching hate for kafir, or grieving alongside the victims of the terrorist acts?

"Not all Muslims" is just not good enough.

We are asking where is the campaigning from Muslim organisations, attempting to root out this problem, calling out the mosques preaching hate for kafir, or grieving alongside the victims of the terrorist acts?

Muslim organisations do speak out about extremism, these actions are never acceptable and are not taught in Islam. See above for the Imam in France speaking out. We also have to speak out and clarify that these individuals are not with us, due to their actions verbal and physical attacks on Muslims are increasing because they are labelling themselves Islamic.

Rooting out this problem is not the responsibility of the Muslim community, that is for the counter terrorism office. Muslims do not know the locations of extremist meetings in the same way we don’t know the location of far right meetings, etc as they are not a part of our communities. In the case I have known where a family member has been radicalised (over the internet) his parents reported their concerns to the police.

We do grieve for the victims alongside the rest of the world, I’m not sure why you don’t think we do