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Original poster

Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

973 replies

Icantthinkofabettername · 17/10/2020 08:57

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

OP posts:

AllPlayedOut · 20/10/2020 19:38

Satanist's? Satanists.

pointythings · 20/10/2020 19:38

The Church of Satan are a little hardcore for me, but I could absolutely get behind these guys: thesatanictemple.com/

Not a sacrifice in sight, just some good old fashioned humanity.

sydenhamhiller · 20/10/2020 19:42

@mangoesforever

I seriously worry about the direction this country is headed. Basically we are at a point where dissidents of the main stream left wing are being silenced and punished. If not quite criminally culpable, people are still losing their jobs, work, social standings. Look at the doxing that happens on Twitter, people intent on ruining people's lives and livelihoods just because they dare to go against the grain of opinion. University professors losing their positions due to mass campaigning of Marxist students. Career politicians in governance.

The fact that people are wheeling out the "if you cause offence" argument as a reaction to Religious Extremist decapitations in a fellow Western European society isn't a surprise.

Yup. What you said mangoesforever

LouiseBelchersBunnyEars · 20/10/2020 21:11

@stairway

We have to respect others peoples beliefs and religions because we live in a multicultural society. If we showed no respect for other people who think differently from us then it becomes harder for different ethnic minorities to live side by side. Unfortunately I think it’s a colonial attitude really that other people culture beliefs need mocking so that they end up believing what we want them to. Charlie Hebdo printed pages and pages of really offensive racial and religious stereotyping. I’m sorry that a psychopath broke in and shot them, no one deserves that. I still don’t agree with what they publish and continue to publish.

Honestly, I’d rather have my beliefs/lack of mocked, than be killed for them.

I’d rather a ‘colonial’ attitude of mocking, than an attitude of murder if you don’t believe in the caliphate.

There are a few too many posts teetering towards the line of justification for me.

stairway · 20/10/2020 21:36

All I’m suggesting is mutual respect and tolerance. When the cartons were first published many French even Chirac thought they were provocative and went too far. Since the attacks now most (white) French support them. Whereas it is the opposite in the Muslim community. The cartoons have almost become a self fulfilling prophecy. No one benefits from this situation . Why anyone in UK would want the tensions that France has is beyond me. Far better to live in a society that ( generally) respects each other.

woodhill · 20/10/2020 21:40

So would I Louise

mangoesforever · 20/10/2020 21:52

Wow, my last two comments deleted, perfectly proving my point. All I did was state that the woke left have more in common with religious extremists than they think!

We do not have free speech in the UK.

monstermancs · 20/10/2020 21:58

Unfortunately I think it’s a colonial attitude really that other people culture beliefs need mocking so that they end up believing what we want them to.

Surely it's a colonialist attitude to expect to impose your culture and beliefs on the majority population in the secular country where you choose to live?

mangoesforever · 20/10/2020 22:04

Prejudice against Muslims exists @pointythings I am not denying that... but the term Islamophobia has assisted a blanket ban any criticism of Islam - the left wheel the term out at the drop of a hat and refuse to discuss the elephant in the room: there is a serious and meaningful clash between the culture of conservative Muslims - of which there are a significant minority in this country - and British culture.

The fact that even after something as blatantly illogical and insane as a beheading, OP and PP are trying to argue that criticism of Islam shouldn't be made, proves the point. Very alarming that people can almost excuse the beheading by blaming the victim for being offensive to an 'oppressed minority'.

Not even close to the truth in this case anyway!

MoonJelly · 20/10/2020 23:10

@mangoesforever

Wow, my last two comments deleted, perfectly proving my point. All I did was state that the woke left have more in common with religious extremists than they think!

We do not have free speech in the UK.

No. You're on a privately owned site the owners of which are perfectly entitled to decide to delete posts that don't comply with their rules. It demonstrates nothing about basic principles of free speech.

mangoesforever · 21/10/2020 07:12

And what are their rules modelled on...

Oliversmumsarmy · 21/10/2020 07:24

Unfortunately I think it’s a colonial attitude really that other people culture beliefs need mocking so that they end up believing what we want them to

You miss the point of satire.

It is the ability to laugh at ourselves as well anyone or anything.

The only people who are wanting us to believe what they want are the ones beheading and killing in the name of their religion/beliefs.

pointythings · 21/10/2020 07:35

@Oliversmumsarmy

Unfortunately I think it’s a colonial attitude really that other people culture beliefs need mocking so that they end up believing what we want them to

You miss the point of satire.

It is the ability to laugh at ourselves as well anyone or anything.

The only people who are wanting us to believe what they want are the ones beheading and killing in the name of their religion/beliefs.

Agreed 100%. I am a single parent, foreign (Dutch, so lots of jokes about cheese/windmills/tight-fistedness to be had there), overweight, old - have at me! If we lose the ability to laugh at ourselves, what's the point of us?

Mockery is as old as humanity.

RomeoLikedCapuletGirls · 21/10/2020 07:58

I also didn’t like the Hebdo pictures, but when you really study what Mohammed did in his life then I think satire is a legitimate line of defence against that.

OP do you know much about Mohammed? He wasn’t some peaceful hippy like Jesus. Apart from his actions towards women and girls, he was a belligerent warrior who ordered the execution of hundreds, beheading being his preferred method of killing. He even had a slave girl beheaded because she sang satires about him.

That he gets a free pass to not be criticised, that criticising him is seen as offensive to the millions that worship him is all kinds of fucked up.

queenofknives · 21/10/2020 12:00

This is an excellent article that covers some of the same ground as this thread has: www.spiked-online.com/2020/10/20/islamists-are-gaslighting-us/

silentpool · 21/10/2020 16:59

[quote queenofknives]This is an excellent article that covers some of the same ground as this thread has: www.spiked-online.com/2020/10/20/islamists-are-gaslighting-us/[/quote]
I agree with this. I'm starting to think, "Thin edge of the wedge" with some of this stuff. If we accept it, more and more ground gets conceded .

woodhill · 21/10/2020 17:44

Hard to understand the attraction to him and his teachings

NeverAMillionMilesAway · 21/10/2020 22:55

@RomeoLikedCapuletGirls

I also didn’t like the Hebdo pictures, but when you really study what Mohammed did in his life then I think satire is a legitimate line of defence against that.

That he gets a free pass to not be criticised, that criticising him is seen as offensive to the millions that worship him is all kinds of fucked up.

Just a small point- muslims do not worship the prophet. Muslims worship God, and only God. Otherwise, no arguments from me.

Oliversmumsarmy · 22/10/2020 08:37

Just a small point- muslims do not worship the prophet. Muslims worship God, and only God.
Otherwise, no arguments from me

Then why all the fuss over someone who is a non entity.

LouiseBelchersBunnyEars · 22/10/2020 08:40

Hmm, when you show that type of reverence and deference to a figure, it’s hard not to see it as worship.

stairway · 22/10/2020 10:13

Two Muslim veiled women have now been stabbed in Paris whilst being called dirty Arabs.

pointythings · 22/10/2020 10:19

@stairway

Two Muslim veiled women have now been stabbed in Paris whilst being called dirty Arabs.

That's dreadful. However, what is the point you are attempting to make by posting it?

stairway · 22/10/2020 10:27

My point is that the tensions in Paris go both ways. If you look at the daily mail comments there is a lot of sympathy for the attackers. There is a lot of islamophobia on this thread, I would like to remind people that Muslims suffer attacks too.

queenofknives · 22/10/2020 10:38

There's no Islamophobia on this thread that I have seen. It's not Islamophobic to defend people's right to free speech.

It's horrible that two women were attacked and it is unacceptable.

However, you are acting as though this is some kind of justification or context for the beheading of a teacher by extremist religious terrorists. It's not. There's no justification for that, and he was not involved in some kind of 'both sides tension' as you seem to be implying. It is not Islamophobic to be horrified by religious terrorism and murder.

NeverAMillionMilesAway · 22/10/2020 10:54

@Oliversmumsarmy

*Just a small point- muslims do not worship the prophet. Muslims worship God, and only God. Otherwise, no arguments from me*

Then why all the fuss over someone who is a non entity.

Beats me, no idea.

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