Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

I seriously worry about the direction this country is headed. Basically we are at a point where dissidents of the main stream left wing are being silenced and punished. If not quite criminally culpable, people are still losing their jobs, work, social standings. Look at the doxing that happens on Twitter, people intent on ruining people's lives and livelihoods just because they dare to go against the grain of opinion. University professors losing their positions due to mass campaigning of Marxist students.
Career politicians in governance.

The fact that people are wheeling out the "if you cause offence" argument as a reaction to Religious Extremist decapitations in a fellow Western European society isn't a surprise.

I think I can see where the OP is coming from?

Is the argument that freedom of speech is actually a bit of an illusion? That we're defending something that doesn't exist equally for all people? I think that in theory it does, but that the platforms to express that freedom do not exist equally for all people.

Look at how sanitised the history syllabus in the UK has been, and is becoming, for example, we stick to medieval kings, the romans and vikings when actually our kids would learn a lot more about modern life if they understood the true nature of the british empire and colonialism, vietnam and the gulf wars for example.....

@FixTheBone

Focus more on the subjects that induce western guilt/shame, rather than a varied look at our very long and rich history?

Don't worry because we're headed that way, and very soon.

@stairway

Of course not, I’m talking specifically about the kind of stuff Charlie Hebdo publish. It produces really unpleasant racial/ religious stereotypes as well as other offensive material. I’m not talking about what the teacher did. I wouldn’t want to comment on that situation at present. Satire is a risky business, if you offend someone be it religious or political there is a risk there.

WTF. Are you really saying that producing satire should mean your life is at risk? Victim blaming at its best. Appeasing religious nutjobs in case they take offense and cut our heads off. You may want to live in a country like that but thankfully most of us don’t.

@stairway

We have to respect others peoples beliefs and religions because we live in a multicultural society. If we showed no respect for other people who think differently from us then it becomes harder for different ethnic minorities to live side by side. Unfortunately I think it’s a colonial attitude really that other people culture beliefs need mocking so that they end up believing what we want them to. Charlie Hebdo printed pages and pages of really offensive racial and religious stereotyping. I’m sorry that a psychopath broke in and shot them, no one deserves that. I still don’t agree with what they publish and continue to publish.

See, I don't agree with this. People (including me) have chosen to live here for a variety of reasons. That does not give me or anyone the right to demand that the host culture uncritically accepts our ways, as being of equal importance. Tolerance is good, equivalence is not. What is the point in moving here if our countries and ways of doing things are perfect?

I completely support freedom of speech and do not agree with self censorship. If people cannot handle taking a hard look at their culture and beliefs, they need to work on themselves.

I'm sure Charlie Hebdo are painfully aware of the risks they run by drawing cartoons. Good on them for continuing to do so.
As a Christian I regularly see people ripping the piss. Imaginary sky fairy blah blah... yet I dont want to kill Ricky Gervais.

I think you sound ignorant of the role of the pope. But that's the least of your problems really!

Good day to you.

@stairway

Of course not, I’m talking specifically about the kind of stuff Charlie Hebdo publish. It produces really unpleasant racial/ religious stereotypes as well as other offensive material. I’m not talking about what the teacher did. I wouldn’t want to comment on that situation at present. Satire is a risky business, if you offend someone be it religious or political there is a risk there.

This comment is extremely offensive to me (let alone the family and students of the teacher who was killed, and the families of all those killed by terrorists.) I think what you're saying is completely disgusting and reprehensible. But I still defend your right to say it. I don't think anyone should hurt or kill you because of your abhorrent and vile point of view. Or should I judge by YOUR standards and assume you'd accept the death penalty as you yourself took the risk of publishing these utterly disgusting statements?

How can you possibly defend the idea that people should accept the risk of death for making political or religious satire? So if I draw an 'offensive' cartoon of Boris Johnson, would it be okay for the government to take me out? No? Explain the difference then. Explain why it's okay for you to say these incredibly offensive things, but others should accept the risk of DEATH for their views.

@Icantthinkofabettername

I totally condemn what happened to the teacher and at Charlie Hebdo. My point is that nothing like this should happen again. Surely thought is needed about the reasons this happened to stop it happening again.

That sounds like "if only people would shut up when they are told to then they wouldn't have to murder them"

I support Charlie Hebdo. I'd put the cartoons on every town hall to make the point that terrorism must not be allowed to win.

@stairway

Of course not, I’m talking specifically about the kind of stuff Charlie Hebdo publish. It produces really unpleasant racial/ religious stereotypes as well as other offensive material. I’m not talking about what the teacher did. I wouldn’t want to comment on that situation at present. Satire is a risky business, if you offend someone be it religious or political there is a risk there.

"if you offend someone be it religious or political there is a risk there." not from decent and civilised people there is not. Are you suggesting that some people are unable to control the urge to murder and we must work around it?

@stairway a long time ago in my native Netherlands, a man was up in court for the crime of beating his wife (badly enough that she needed hospital treatment). His defence was to say that he had beaten her in accordance with the traditions of his culture.

Guess where he ended up?

When culture clashes with the law of the country you live in, you can abide by the law or you can live elsewhere.

We have to respect others peoples beliefs and religions because we live in a multicultural society. If we showed no respect for other people who think differently from us then it becomes harder for different ethnic minorities to live side by side.

Absolutely, extremist Muslims have to respect that they live in a multicultural society that has freedom of speech/expression. They need to respect people who think differently from them so that they can live side by side with others rather than expect everyone to bow to their demands.

mangoes what rubbish. And by using the word 'woke' as an insult, you've just lost the argument.

Just because there are extremists who are Muslims doesn't mean that there aren't extremists who aim their violence at Muslims.

You talk about 'murderous conservative Muslims' without mentioning that there are also murderous conservative white people - I wonder why that is? Don't derail this thread by making it all about how bad Muslims are because that isn't the point.

We have to respect others peoples beliefs and religions because we live in a multicultural society. If we showed no respect for other people who think differently from us then it becomes harder for different ethnic minorities to live side by side.

But where do we draw the line? Do we have to respect the beliefs of Satanists or those who practise FGM?

The reality is that there are some people in all faiths who are extremists.

They absolutely should not be appeased or treated with any kind of deference, which is what OP seems to suggest and stairways seems to endorse.

@"FixTheBone - this really annoyd me. Have a look at what is taught in secondary schools. Please inform yourself before making ridiculous claims about the curriculum.

You talk about 'murderous conservative Muslims' without mentioning that there are also murderous conservative white people - I wonder why that is?

I thought it was because it was a 'murderous conservative Muslim' who murdered a teacher by decapitation for teaching something he didn't like. I think you are the one who's derailing.

@queenofknives not at all - I merely pointed out that while one should never pander to terrorists - in this case a Muslim terrorist - it is an incredible stretch to state that Islamophobia does not exist.

Do we have to respect the beliefs of Satanists or those who practise FGM?

How many people have been beheaded by Satanists? I think they are the least of our worries...

@monstermancs

Do we have to respect the beliefs of Satanists or those who practise FGM?

How many people have been beheaded by Satanists? I think they are the least of our worries...

www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/panama-pregnant-woman-and-six-children-killed-during-religious-ritual-11910419

Pregnant woman and six children tortured to death by 'satanic' group

@Icantthinkofabettername

I totally condemn what happened to the teacher and at Charlie Hebdo. My point is that nothing like this should happen again. Surely thought is needed about the reasons this happened to stop it happening again.

The reason this happened is because some people think they are religiously mandated to kill people who disagree with them. That is all.

Pregnant woman and six children tortured to death by 'satanic' group

If you read the article and others, it's pretty clear that they are not Satanists. Incredibly fucked up yes, but not Satanists. They appear to have no belief in Satan as a deity to be worshipped. The core of the groups' beliefs appear to be based in Pentacostalism though there are other influences including indigenous beliefs.

The majority of Satanist's, certainly The Church of Satan do not believe in Satan as an actual being or deity. He's merely a symbol of their philosophy and they do not sacrifice animals or people.

Trut, horrible but in comparison to the deaths caused every year by the mainstream religions this is very rare. I am much more scared of the extremists in mainstream religions than Satanists.