Did anyone hear the woman defending Charlie Hebdo on R4 Today?

[Icantthinkofabettername]

I read about the awful attack on the teacher in France last night. It is just horrific an no one should face that risk.

However, the spokesperson on the Today programme was spectacularly missing the point. She was defending freedom of speech and advocating children being taught about satire.

In my view, there is nothing groundbreaking about using satire to perpetuate the prevailing view and the view of the elite in society, particularly when groups on the lowest rungs of that society feel it is directed at them.

Much in the same way that Trump uses 'Freedom of Speech' and defending 'Liberty' to sanction the oppression of already oppressed members of society.

I don't know what the answer is, terrorism cannot suceed as a tool for change. However, what Charlie Hebdo stood for cannot continue to be blindly defended, without seeing it for what it was.

No I'm not talking about the grooming scandal before you shoehorn that into your assertion of "no go" areas.

The view that “free speech, even that considered offensive or ‘hate speech’, should not be banned – with the obvious and explicit exception of any incitement to violence” is incomplete and simplistic.

Drawing the limits of speech that should be banned at “incitement to violence” takes a simplistic view of hate speech by treating it as just speech and nothing more. It strips speech of one of its most important features – its ability to change the world (and there are no guarantees that that change will be positive).

Arguing for offensive speech to be allowed is easy, and not impressive, when it is not you, your children, and at times your entire race, religious identity or perhaps your right to exist, that is in the firing line.

Where are these so called "no go" areas in the UK?

Depending on what demographic you are there are many many of them. As a pp said parts of rotheram if your a young girl, many places in the uk if you are a teenage boy trying to stay away from county lines gangs. Theres places in liverpool and manchester very much like this. My brothers are prime contenders for being groomed by county limes gangs and the police have warned them to stay away.

flashbac

No I'm not talking about the grooming scandal before you shoehorn that into your assertion of "no go" areas

What are you talking about exactly? Careful now. Wouldnt want to "trigger" anyone or get banned

flashbac

Have you been? Experienced this? Reliable source?

Yes I know numerous families affected by these crimes, but talking about it is urm difficult

Yay for freedom of speech eh?

@Flaxmeadow

Where are these so called "no go" areas in the UK?

For girls or young women? Parts if Rotherham or Rochdale or any other of the north of England towns an deities where organised crime gangs exist with impunity. Take your pick

I live next to and visit for work one of those towns.

There really aren't any 'no go' areas.

I'm wondering where you get the idea that there are from.

I wonder whether you're extrapolating from the horrific grooming scandals which also happened in other towns / cities - or is it only the northern ones which count?

I live next to and visit for work one of those towns.

Live it

My kids are at school there, I visit people in all different areas of the town almost daily and have lots of friends who live there.

I've literally never come across anywhere that's a no go area.

all religions should be regularly ridiculed

@TheRealMcKenna

what do we therefore do about people who take offence at the activities of Jo Cox

I must say, I have never ever heard anyone excuse the murderer of Jo Cox on the basis that she offended them. Did this happen?

No. That's the point. A poster was essentially claiming that the majority of terrorism is committed by Muslims, and that we as a society feel that we therefore have to bend over backwards to accommodate members of that religion because we're scared of them.

I was mainly making the point that an awful lot of terrorism has nothing to do with Islam. This perception that somehow members of one religion get privileged treatment because of people who are prepared to commit terrorist offences in the name of that religion is a false one. In the same way, we don't feel we have to give privileged treatment to accommodate those who might sympathise with other terrorist groups, e.g. the far right.

@MotherMood, you're not reading either my post or the statistics correctly.

What is Islamic extremism if not far right though?
I mean, it’s definitely not a left wing ideology is it?
I don’t understand why ‘far right’ ideology only seems to include the geo nazi type, because I think Islamic terrorists fit the bill of ‘far right’ pretty well

So an ethnic minority woman in charge of law and order, tried to discuss extremely serious law and order issues

No, she didn't.

She tried to drum up anti-immigration sentiment by claiming that, when the Home Office's attempts at deportation were stopped by the courts, this was somehow due to dodgy activities by lawyers rather than because the Home Office hadn't complied with the law She was warned that her rhetoric was causing problems for lawyers from right wing anti-immigration groups, but she chose to continue.

Utter, complete crap about no go zone areas in the places I've lived all my life.

Yes, islamism is yet another right wing ideology which is tearing our world apart.

As if you kind of people even know the first thing about any 'parts of rotherham' hahahahahahaha. Just saying the first thing that managed to penetrate your skull whilst reading your nasty bitter little tabloid.

Yeah I live not a million miles away from Sevran. I’m probably the only mumsnetter who actually lives anywhere near here. I have never felt unsafe or threatened walking the streets and there are plenty of women about.

I’ve lived in France for 13 years now. Bizarrely, DH is an histoire/ géo teacher in a collège, and our oldest DS is in 4ème. It feels... unbelievable, what has happened. DH said, “that’s the kind of thing I would I done.” He tries to get his students thinking, talking, debating, developing their ability to think critically. It is such an important skill.

France’s approach to immigration, assimilation, multiculturalism etc is very very different to the UK. It took me a long time to get my head round it. France is strictly secular in the public realm - there is no mention or appearance of anything religious in schools, public buildings, schools etc. No assemblies, no choirs, no Christmas parties etc Yet people are free to practice their beliefs in the private sphere.

France is committed to assimilation: immigrants coming to France are expected to become “french”, to speak the language of the country and to uphold the values of the republic. Multiculturalism is not celebrated here at all.

Racism And levels of deprivation among BAME communities are a real problem. And the extent of it is unacknowledged because, as a pp said, France does not collect data on nationality or country of origin. So there is no way to compare, for example, income levels of white versus BAME employees in any industry or area. You can’t even acknowledge which suburbs have a higher % of BAME inhabitants and link that to lower income or deprivation (A friend tells me this is partly because if the data showed that North African or Arab people outnumbered whites in parts of the country, there would be a massive swing to the FN). You can clearly see it just by walking around the streets, but there is no official recognition or data to back it up. There is no tracking of attainment, career progression, income level, representation etc of BAME people because the data does not exist and cannot be collected. This means that discrimination and racism go unrecorded and unacknowledged, and the resentment in these communities builds and festers.

Officially the state is colour-blind - but French people are not. Macron has to come down hard on this attack because the Front National are waiting in the wings.

Did you know that Macron is proposing to ban homeschooling in France? Because it is believed that some Muslim parents are withdrawing their children from school to enrol them in “clandestine” Islamic schools. Could you imagine the uproar in the UK if the government proposed this??

@Flaxmeadow

The undercover film of sevran must all be acted/staged because according to pp these problems don't exist.

@miimblemomble that seems a great society which is French first. I would still rather have the French way instead of trying to classify everything by race and complaining about the slightest differences. The reason white working class children are left behind in the UK is because of this obsession with catagorising but in in a world of special interest groups nobody wants to make them winners as it's not politically correct. Free speech should always be encouraged and supported. Your right to offend me is as important as my right to offend others. Free speech should be absolute. Charlie hebdo satirised a group who threaten Frances liberal democratic atheist believes the terrorist attack should be absolutely condemned. It is also concerning that specific characteristics of the people who comitt the terrorist attacks against Charlie hebdo perhaps this group are not overly tolerant of critism.

[quote Wherehavetheteletubbiesgone]@miimblemomble that seems a great society which is French first. I would still rather have the French way instead of trying to classify everything by race and complaining about the slightest differences. The reason white working class children are left behind in the UK is because of this obsession with catagorising but in in a world of special interest groups nobody wants to make them winners as it's not politically correct. Free speech should always be encouraged and supported. Your right to offend me is as important as my right to offend others. Free speech should be absolute. Charlie hebdo satirised a group who threaten Frances liberal democratic atheist believes the terrorist attack should be absolutely condemned. It is also concerning that specific characteristics of the people who comitt the terrorist attacks against Charlie hebdo perhaps this group are not overly tolerant of critism.[/quote]
Absolutely! Excellently put.

I would still rather have the French way instead of trying to classify everything by race and complaining about the slightest differences. The reason white working class children are left behind in the UK is because of this obsession with catagorising but in in a world of special interest groups nobody wants to make them winners as it's not politically correct. Free speech should always be encouraged and supported. Your right to offend me is as important as my right to offend others. Free speech should be absolute

This.

We do not have free speech in the UK nor do we have a level playing field when it comes to education and employment.
In the race to have everything 50/50 the fact that the minority is one of the 50%’s makes it harder for the majority who have to squeeze into the other 50%.

.

As if you kind of people even know the first thing about any 'parts of rotherham' hahahahahahaha.

You kind of people? What's that supposed to mean?

Do you think no one on mumsnet could possibly live in towns and cities in the north? That the tens of thousands of victims of these crimes don't have families, friends, neighbours? That we are all show room dummies, that we shouldn't be allowed to speak?

Just saying the first thing that managed to penetrate your skull whilst reading your nasty bitter little tabloid

It was the Times newspaper who led the story and the journalist who brought this scandal into the public domain won prestigious international awards for his all his hard work. It led to the Jay report. One of the most shocking and disturbing reports this country has ever seen

Maybe you think northerners "skulls" are too thick to notice whats going on in their own streets, towns and cities and if they do try to discuss what's happening to them, shut them up by mocking them with class based bigotry.

MotherMood
@FlaxmeadowThe undercover film of sevran must all be acted/staged because according to pp these problems don't exist

Yes

Priti Patel said something negative about lawyers. Then someone got stabbed at a law firm. Others are upping their security measures because of her hate speech against lawyers doing their job.
But freedom of speech ennit.

According to the logic of the OP, these lawyers should be shut down in case they offend the belief system and sensibilities of the fragile stabber. It's blaming the victim.

that seems a great society which is French first. I would still rather have the French way instead of trying to classify everything by race and complaining about the slightest differences. The reason white working class children are left behind in the UK is because of this obsession with catagorising but in in a world of special interest groups nobody wants to make them winners as it's not politically correct. Free speech should always be encouraged and supported. Your right to offend me is as important as my right to offend others. Free speech should be absolute. Charlie hebdo satirised a group who threaten Frances liberal democratic atheist believes the terrorist attack should be absolutely condemned. It is also concerning that specific characteristics of the people who comitt the terrorist attacks against Charlie hebdo perhaps this group are not overly tolerant of critism.

Well said.

The "world of special interests groups" is the USA, where any discussion on class is discouraged, even shunned. It's happening here too, in the very places, France and England, where class based struggle began