Uni students... risking the wrath of mn..

[redgin]

Firstly, I have had 2 children go through uni and out the other side and I fully understand the emotional and financial aspects.

But

They leave home, expect to be treated as adults (rightly) and have their first taste of independence. After a summer debating the risks of going to uni this year in the middle of a pandemic why are they surprised they have to isolate in their rented accommodation like anyone else? That they have to follow the rules like the rest of the law abiding?

IMO they chose to go, they couldn't have expected normal, so get on with it.

But Unis are STILL telling students "it's fine", "it'll be blended learning", etc etc on their websites even today. The reality is being deliberately concealed so the Uni's can rake in the tuition fees and accommodation costs. It's absolutely disgusting what the unis are doing.

Just as a simple example, even now, just googled it, our son's Uni webpages say that the halls my son is in have kitchen cleaning 3 days per week, communal areas cleaned weekly, etc. In reality, they had an online welcome session on Sunday saying there'd be no cleaning at all this year!

They're just blatantly lying to get the students in situ for the money!

If any university fails to deliver what they promised and 'blatantly lie' ( so read the small print) then you should take it to the OIAHE. That's a students right.

However, bear in mind that lots of the changes are out of the universities control.
Remember remote teaching is still f2f and can be excellent.

The elderly and the vulnerable should go back and shield. We cannot screw up our kids futures like this any more. All DC should be back at school and at college and Uni.

And if a significant number of teachers and university staff and/or their family members are among the vulnerable, and therefore not in work, how are your dc going to carry on with their education?

welcome to the neoliberal university....the staff have been shafted for years but now its alao the students

Trouble is, as seen on the other Uni thread, there are some lecturers simply refusing to return to campus to teach F2F. Unless there's some way of forcing them to return, then we can't go back to "normal". Are there enough other lecturers willing to do F2F to take over if the refusers are made redundant?

You can't just refuse to teach f2f. People might have a preference but if your university has told you to teach a certain way then that's what you have to do.
Most academics I know want to be on campus teaching students f2f.

But there is a staff shortage as we've had years of redundancies in the sector

Year 1 modules don't usually count towards the final degree grade anyway. And the optional "non subject" modules could have been first to be dropped. They could have concentrated on the modules that really matter, so little, if anything, is lost.

Year 1 modules may not count towards the overall degree classification, but you still need the required number of credits to progress to the next year and to be awarded a degree at the end.

@Tomatoesneedtoripen I have done several free on line courses. They were interesting but if you think an hour a week for 6 weeks is an alternative to uni or a gap year you are a twit. And what happens when we are a whole cohort short of doctors, nurses, engineers, teachers etc. Do you have the intellectual capacity to see the bigger picture?

unis are businesses so yeah they massaged the truth...but you know that pret sandwich is also not actually home made....boris wanted to save pret, dom wanted to teach unis a lesson

Yeah I disagree with the op too and all well & good saying everything can be done online but not when a cyberattack has compromised all learning platforms. Some students are in halls miles away from a campus they’ve not even visited yet and with no contact from the Uni. Along with leaving home for the 1st time & maybe living with people you don’t get along with in the middle of a pandemic. The partying can wait but have a heart for the other aspects they’re dealing with.

Students were told that they had to attend in person. I assume they expected a system similar to secondaries and some limitations on socialising. What they didn't expect was being told enmasse that all classes are now online and they cannot leave their flats unless it's essential. There is security everywhere and breaking the lockdown means being thrown off the course.

There was no need for this. Halls etc were always going to be a huge risk. Of courses can be done online those students could have stayed home where possible, allowing students who needed to use accommodation or who need to attend practical classes to distance better.

But then unis would lose a term of rent, so they didn't do that.

Students should have been to properly informed before they made their decisions but this didn't happen. Now mental health issues are likely to be even more common than COVID.

Students of all ages have been failed. Promised something that couldn't be delivered. Insane education disruptions and a shambolic exam results period.

I’m staggered at your lack of empathy, OP.

First time away from home in a new city, promised a mix on online and f2f, opportunities to meet people, work with others on their course, start living independently.

Instead, kept in their tiny rooms in a flat share with strangers 24 hours a day, no chance to meet classmates, do practical lessons, pop home for the weekend if homesick etc etc.

Bored, lonely and a long way from home.

Strongly disagree op, and I suggest you develop some empathy for those in this situation.

Many adults would struggle with enforced seclusion in a new environment with people they have never met before, never mind worrying about possible exposure to coronavirus.

And you say students should just follow the rules like any other law abiding person. The problem is that being effectively incarcerated in a hall of residence is not a rule the rest of us are having to follow, and according to this article, it breaches human rights law: www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/09/28/inhumane-lockdown-rules-scottish-students-breach-human-rights/

so what do others suggest happens:
a)all online
b)all face to face

???

It was never going to be normal......it was always going to be a pandemic with a very likely second lockdown

all academics have empathy.....especially as we are the front line workers that will end up helping all of these students. we don't lack empathy - most go into the profession because they like young people and like teaching them face to face. but by now most are probably quite fed up with the general public wanting it every which way - the government passing the buck to uni managers etc.

If what we are saying is that online education is equivalent then what the Hell have we been paying for all these years?

TBH, I think that's a v legitimate question.

And I do think it makes clear what has always been known but not articulated that the university experience in this country is as much about prestige and about leaving home than about what is learned (or rather that's a significant part of what is learned but never made explicit).

I think we need a radical overhaul of education at every level.

If what we are saying is that online education is equivalent then what the Hell have we been paying for all these years?

What I am saying is that NO education this year is the same as previous years, it can't be, just as working isn't the same, office meetings aren't the same and socializing isn't the same.

Face to face on campus isn't the same as face to face last year as we are all in masks and can't have discussions. Library numbers have to be substantially limited. Students can't socialize lots on campus or set up face to face clubs easily. Medical students and dentist students are really problematic as they need hands on practice- but the corona virus risks are real and substantial.

Online can mean a mixture of types of learning- but typically is a mix of pre-recorded watching of a lecture or course content and online real time seminars- my online real time seminars take up many hours a week and aren't about simply watching a video! My office hours take up two more hours and don't involve watching a video!

Some people are a bit slow to the changes that Covid-19 has wrought across the whole of our society- none of us in the workplace are unaffected, so why would this be different in universities? We can't just run over to ask June in accounts something, we have to do it online. The students have to study online in groups, facilitated by a lecturer or teacher. It doesn't just happen.

I'm getting quite tired of people saying 'online' must mean a lot of old crap because the OU has run online courses (distance courses) which are not crap for a very long time. Also, exams can be taken online (ours are 24 hour, open book ones for example) and masking can be done online.

Online doesn't mean watch one hour a week of a crappy video and if it does, I would complain. But it doesn't.

That should have said marking is now online. That means we can mark work wherever we are in the world and not just carry round a pile of marking scripts. Do you think accountants are trying to sort through piles of receipts still or move their clients to online recording and calculation of tax?

Online is where the world is moving, with some face to face time if it's safe to do so.

@Poppingnostopping totally agree with you!!

@Poppingnostopping I'm not disputing any of that (and I am a teacher currently teaching hybrid lessons - half in front of me and half 'dialling in' remotely - so I am extremely well aware of how online tuition can work (and probably more imaginative and creative in my use of online tuition than most university lecturers) but my point is that if tuition can be flexible and online, which clearly it can, why should students bother to 'go' physically to university any more. They are rightly complaining that they are paying 9k and the same again for accommodation for doing what they could just as easily be doing in their bedroom at home with significantly less cost and more freedom.

And yet we do worse to people with mental illness and almost nobody bats an eyelid? In fact, they're supposed to be healed by being brutalised and traumatised, which clearly people are capable of understanding is a ridiculous harmful notion.

Yep, great post. And add adults with learning disabilities and/or autism to that list. Don't expect any sympathy on here though, people don't give a fuck about stuff like this until it happens to them. This whole situation with the virus is highlighting all lot of the ways in which people give zero thought to disabled people. Take all the whining about being isolated at home alone for example. Yeah, nothing new to disabled people. For a lot of people with mental illness and disabilities life hasn't really changed. It's the same old social isolation, being stuck indoors, no meaningful contact with the outside world - let alone support. The only thing that's different is that "normal" people are finding out how much it sucks to live that way.
For the students this is just a small part of their lives, for some people it's forever.

nostaples I agree, some of our students chose this option, so not all were pushed into coming to campus, I have several who chose remote study, I then have lots of students who wanted to get out of their parents' house and bedrooms after six months of lockdown, and then I think there's a third (smaller) group who might have benefitted from considering remote studying from home. Those haven't been served well from being persuaded to come.

I don't think it would have been to anyone's benefit to delay an entire year from starting, even if online is not a perfect solution at this time point, it would have just stacked up a backlog for next year and we actually had way more students turn up than we imagined would do- our estimates were for much lower numbers and we ended up with more than ever.

I keep thinking going to a nearby uni/home study might take off but it doesn't seem to, I know it's more common in Europe with some students living at home and studying for many years.

I don't have a current University Student but I have every sympathy for them. Every University and student is different so it is hard to generalise but I am guessing most are annoyed because much more was promised, in the way of face to face study and campus activities, before they made the decision to go.

The timing has been awful with everything else opening up and cases rising just as kids go back to school and students go off to Universities.

@Poppingnostopping I suppose what I'm getting at is value for money. It isn't for arts students who subsidise more expensive courses.

We've always known that but I think students could live with it as long as they were having fun and getting useful experiences in other ways.

University education is now exposed for what it really is: really, really poor value for arts students.

I mean the degree certificate is worthwhile and the prestige of going to a RG university and the experience of leaving home and living independently.

But the TUITION is poor value and often poor quality.

When it becomes clear that it's a couple of hours online and then you go off and read books and write essays.