I’m Karen at work

[CoronaCustard]

Late 40s woman in an organisation full of 20 somethings - and I’m just failing to bite my tongue when they’re WRONG.

At the point where I’m just going to refuse to do it their way any longer.

And yes, I have written multi-paragraph letters of complaint and requested to see the manager.

How does one operate smoothly as a woman of certain age and wisdom in a world which is set up to not hear you ( I always presume because my qualification is different to everyone else in the office - but also maybe because of generation divide).

I don’t want to just walk out. I like the work. And everyone would scarcely be less eye-rolly to me if I bailed at 11th hour. Though yes I am job hunting for the future. Anyone know any good openings for a prime Karen?

I’ll figure out the work situation.

The ‘paranoia’ comment is that I often perceive that people see me as ridiculous if I do challenge, even if they are polite to my face - in a way beyond what I feel can be explained by my actual behaviour. I put some of that down to having a different qualification ( so its hard for people to understand why certain issues are important) - and some of it down to ‘K’ memes, which make it culturally acceptable to mock middle aged women raising grievances.

As a human being and a professional I will of course reflect on how to behave more constructively. But since posters on the thread don’t really know me beyond a few posts - I do feel a little gaslighted in how quick the consensus has been that the problem is specific to me.

I’m glad that there are middle aged women making their points effectively in boardrooms across the land. I personally am finding it more difficult to be assertive without getting people’s backs up than I did 20 years ago.

I totally get you OP. I quit my last job because of what you are describing. Fact of the matter was, through experience, I did know better. But they wouldn't listen and made my life extremely difficult as their way was not the right way even though they absolutely thought they were right. Arrogant.

My new employer is also younger than me but appreciates my generation knows things he doesn't and in turn, I appreciate how he sees things I don't so we work together well. That's the difference.

OP, no one here thinks you are paranoid. it's understandable that you feel frustrated. You've had a tough reception but I want to try and separate out a few things.

1. The Karen pushback

I think your treatment on the thread has been unfair on this. You clearly made the Karen comment, not to defend use of the word, but to explain how you've been treated. A lot of people on mumsnet love to jump on things and it's clear people just jumped on you about that issue in a way that made no sense.

1. Your posts are extremely confusing

Completely separately to the Karen comment, a lot of posts stated that this was a word salad or that they couldn't understand what you were saying. I think you read this as them ridiculing the concept of you being dismissed or undervalued but to me they are being literal. Your posts are extremely confusing!! Remember we don't know you or the situation and only have what you are saying. Your first post was about age discrimination. Then it became about being a specialist. Then management love you. Then they hate you.

Even the pie / curry analogy is unhelpful because whilst it tells us that you are a specialist in one area it doesn't actually shed any light on company/industry culture that would allow us to give advice. How senior are the people involved? How senior are you? How important are the various "pies" or "currys" to the bottom line of the business? If you just said you were a consultant etc, people could give better advice.

Like "I have written multi-paragraph letters of complaint and requested to see the manager"

What manager?

Your manager? Their manager? The CEO? The board? What is the management structure here? You want advice about to better manage your organizational relationships but it's really hard to understand what is going on.

Poeple have asked follow up questions that you'e ignored, such as

@SuzieCarmichael asked

- who is your line manager and were they involved in recruiting you / the decision to add your specialism to the company’s range of services?
- have you clearly expressed your concerns to your line manager with constructive practical suggestions for how things could be changed to improve the service quality for clients?
- do you have a good relationship with anyone else at a senior level who you might be able to discuss this with? Have you discussed it with them?

These is the kind of information that would enable people to give decent answers. Instead you keep replying back semi sarcastically but vaguely!

Please please please don't take this as a criticism. I'm not trying to insult you just point out where I think there's a disconnect. If you could just give clear answers to some basic questions in a paragraph format, then I think people would be able to refocus on fixing your problem.

Sorry - tbh there’s a lot going on IRL so I’ve kind of vented & run.

@hereyehearye
I’m entry level - albeit with a specialist skill set. I’m happy with this - I picked it for the flex so I don’t want to get any more senior. I adressed my email to two layers above me, because I didn’t want to keep trying to explain why I was struggling with the format to my immediate manager who has no part in deciding what the format has to be. I have no relationship with this layer. I see them once a year maybe.

@SuzieCarmichael

My line manager has changed 4 times from when I was recruited. The decision to add my specialism is based on the user demand - but the management have never followed through with adjusting the culture of the company. I sent a very specific email to give my suggestions two years ago. My mentor person did say I was pissing in the wind trying to explain curry to pie chefs - and although changes have come about the frustrations are still there. I decided to pivot to do a slightly different role which I’m less personally invested in - but in a moment of weakness I agreed to do this ‘wedding’ & I’m already frustrated when I’ve barely started.

I’ve not been very specific because fundamentally I think fixing the issues isn’t really something MN can help me with. If management aren’t in a position to listen, then my choice is to make the curry pies or leave. It’s not an organisation people tend to stay with long term (hence the very young demographic) - but it happens to suit me to have an opportunity to use my skills and do it within school-hours.

In thinking of leaving though, I realise that the experience has left me less confident than before - in my skills, in my voice and whether I really still have a place in the world of work. I think I posted the OP mainly to exorcise that out of my system.

Fundamentally - I can plough through the professional challenge of this - but I do think that some of the reasons why it’s been hard to get my voice heard is underlying ageism and the sexism.

I'm also a woman of a certain age and don't find this to be an issue at all. However, I am very careful about how I communicate and diplomatic about how I flag problems. It would very rarely involve repeat multi-paragraph emails. Have you tried talking to people in person or at least via phone/video conference instead?

Additionally if you are going round your manager and emailing their manager, with whom you don't already have a working relationship, that could easily be seen as deliberately stirring the pot and not understanding basic workplace norms.

I sympathise with your frustration, OP. Sounds as if management’s inadequate or outdated strategy requires you to do something that doesn’t really meet clients’ needs. You have the experience (and conscience) to give a better service. But colleagues and management don’t want you rocking the boat.

Unless you’re promoted to a more powerful position you have little change of changing this workplace culture. Can you just go on working efficiently without discussing it? Or do colleagues keep confronting you?I’d be looking for another job, but I know it’s a bad time.

Good luck, OP.

Also — I recognise the sexism and the ageism. So irritating when your experience improves your work but this annoys your younger and less efficient colleagues. Managers are wasting your skills.

If the job’s convenient and not stressing you out except on odd occasions, maybe just shrug it off till something better turns up. No use trying to improve the service if colleagues and managers prefer not to. It’s management’s and clients’ loss.

Op, (yes back) but reading your updates

You’re in an entry level position that is predominantly done by people in their twenties
What differentiates you from these folks is your speciality
Your age is something you keep referring to, as a key differentiator. So your age v theirs is important to you.
You copy your managers manager in on your communications, under mining your manager and requesting a meeting with the one up who you have no relationship with, and whose relationship is solely with your supervisor.

I wonder if this is about pride and status.

Is your supervisor young also? What is the reason you go above their head as you do?

If you could get your speciality taken more seriously and you were allowed to do things for your speciality as you chose, it would give you a level of seniority, you’d go from having a speciality to being an expert, and immediately in a different position to the other folks in their twenties, and you’d have a working relationship with the one up, that by passed your supervisor and put you at their level, hence why you’re emailing them.

I wonder if deep down this is about personal pride and status. You’ve found yourself doing an entry level role with a bunch of young people, and possibly managed by someone also much younger, and you don’t wish to be seen as the equivalent to a group of basically school leavers,

So by getting different procedures put in place, developing a relationship with your one up, and making your speciality more of a focus, you by design become much more important.

I’d think is this really only about the service users, or is this more about your feelings about your position.

It’s you, honestly it is.

What is being a Karen? I have no idea to what your are referring to

It must be isolating to be the only middle aged woman at work and I think there is a problem generally with MAW being ignored and undervalued. Not sure that’s the problem here though. If you have genuinely helpful observations to make about process or service then just make them, calmly and clearly. Then perhaps people will listen. As it is, you come across as very incoherent.

I agree with Bluntness. Aim to use your qualifications to get a more senior job. I’m the only middle aged woman at my work too but I have no problems with younger people because I’m the boss!

It's very wrong to use a name as an insult.

It's exist and ageist, but also very offensive to the Karen people.

ethnomed.org/culture/karen/

*sexist

Short answer: whilst there are clearly issues re: the company and the context to which you were hired there is also an issue here with your attitude.

You come across as condescending, arrogant and inflexible. You may well be right about various things but it's how you communicate those things and you appear to lack any positivity or willingness to adapt and that's without getting into your convoluted rhetoric.

You're basically in a job that you stay in because it fits your homelife but clearly think you're too good for and you're letting everyone know it and are then complaining about backlash and wonder why you're not well respected.

Bottom line. You're not the manager and have no power there so you've 4 options:

1. find another post where you can be happier.

2. work for yourself as a freelancer if possible.

3. suck it up and be frustrated.

4. change your mindset and approach.

You must be acting in a discriminative way to be labelled that younger people in the office. Lighten up Karen! Smile!

@Hmm1234

You must be acting in a discriminative way to be labelled that younger people in the office. Lighten up Karen! Smile!

Why are you using an oppressed ethnic group's name as an insult?

You’re misusing the term. A ‘Karen’ is a white woman who uses her white privilege to make racist ludicrous claims of criminal activity against a person of colour. Such as the viral video of black lady just sitting on a bench being accused of agression.

If someone behaves badly or is racist, condemn the actual behaviour. Give it a made-up name if you like. Don't use someone's personal name. It's a common given name of middle-aged - black as well as white - women. Strange that.

Also, don't fall into prejudice yourself by judging an entire group by the actions of one individual person.

Here's a middle-aged Karen.
She's a black American model.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karen_Alexander_(fashion_model)

My understanding of the word Karen must be wrong, because I thought it was someone with white privilege and underlying racism.

Christ, I think I line-managed you, OP. And if not, I’m not sure whether I’m comforted or distressed that there are more of you out there.

@anon666

My understanding of the word Karen must be wrong, because I thought it was someone with white privilege and underlying racism.

Yep you got it wrong. Very wrong. It's actually a rather common first name for middle-aged women. Also the name of an oppressed ethnic group - the Karen people.

Still, you know now.

@schween

Christ, I think I line-managed you, OP. And if not, I’m not sure whether I’m comforted or distressed that there are more of you out there.

We have a population of around 66 million in the UK alone. Of course there's going to be more than one slightly dissatisfied employee who feels unhappy in their job. Workplaces across the country are full of unhappy, difficult, or irritating (to their colleagues) employees. All ages, both sexes.