What constitutes to someone being Irish?

[Cybercubed]

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

@SonEtLumiere so your kids are growing up in the US or mayo? Not to jump on the Mayo bandwagon but my dad is from Mayo, I spent every summer there growing up and lived there for a bit before college. My dad was adamant that I was an Irish person. Maybe it’s because my mom isn’t Irish - but in my time living in Mayo and Dublin, no one considered me Irish. Just my experience.

I'm English but I've lived in roi for 20 years. Still have English accent. Have Irish surname from marriage. I don't really care where people think I'm from. People take you as they find you. I would never think I don't fit in with Irish people because I'm English. I understand all the cultural references at this stage. None of my Irish friends or family care where I was born and brought up.

@SonEtLumiere so your kids are growing up in America? You dont think they are even part American? My kids are growing up in England. I am from Dublin. I know they will be English primarily, with Irish experiences from summer holidays etc. I gave up on the idea of them being Irish when I realised everyone calls me 'Mummy' and not 'Mammy' no matter how many times I called myself Mammy, so she will call me Mummy. It is what it is unfortunately.

Although that is largely irrelevant because I am English and everyone knows I'm English

Being born and raised in Ireland.

People take you as they find you. I would never think I don't fit in with Irish people because I'm English.
This is exactly it. The people who think everyone they meet in Ireland is judging them on some kind of Irishness scale are over thinking it. I couldn't care less.

@frogswimming

I'm English but I've lived in roi for 20 years. Still have English accent. Have Irish surname from marriage. I don't really care where people think I'm from. People take you as they find you. I would never think I don't fit in with Irish people because I'm English. I understand all the cultural references at this stage. None of my Irish friends or family care where I was born and brought up.

Yes, this is exactly my experience. I'm very comfortable here and I fit in just fine.

This is an interesting thread. It makes me wonder how people like Cliff Richard, who was born in India to British parents, are seen. Is he British or Indian? Or both?

@Flaxmeadow

Saoirse7 'They [English] took over land etc' have you any idea just how significant and defining a point in Irish history this throw away statement is? Educate yourself

It was mostly Scots, not the 'English' you replied to, but those Scots did not own the land

SionnachRua
Eh no, we blame the Famine on you because you are to blame,

Who is you?
English people were working class, they had their own struggles to deal and yes that included famine as well (1790s)

your government cheerfully watched our people starve.

This isnt true either, they didn't 'cheerfully'watch people starve and it was a government the vast majority of people, women and men, couldn't vote for. They had no vote. It wasnt until 1918 that men were fully franchised.

If the gov had wanted people to starve they would have blocked them from migrating to England

That's a historical 'you' really, not aimed at the modern day people.

But you did

I was quoting the PP. Anyway, yes, Scots were mainly brough over and planted during the Ulster Plantation. However, it was the English who were behind it, the Scots you talk of were mere pawns. Look back to the Tudor times, then the famine, the Anglo-Irish treaty & war and more recently events like Bloody Sunday in 1972.

SionnachRua
Dealt with that multiple times already in the thread, not going over it again.

No it has not been dealt with

Are you denying that English people were working class, poor agricultural labourers, coal miners and mill labourers? Lived in urban slums and also dies in famines. Are you denying that they had their struggles also. That they lived short brutal lives? That they had no say or representation in government?

Why are blaming them for a famine?

And yes, the Irish were absolutely left to starve. I encourage you to read up about Trevelyan.

No they were not 'left to starve' and yes I have read about Trevelyan

In any case, history is history...

Only some people twist historical fact to suit their own sectarian agendas and bitterness, don't they? Which causes division

and while we shouldn't get too worked up over it, I think the Irish supporting anyone playing against England is harmless enough when you consider the historical context

But it isn't harmless, because you have accused a whole people of starving to death another people. Accused my English coal mining & itinerant agricultural labouring ancestors of genocide basically. Where is your proof of this?

You think you can make statements like that and no one will challenge it. Seriously

Saoirse7
I was quoting the PP. Anyway, yes, Scots were mainly brough over and planted during the Ulster Plantation. However, it was the English who were behind it, the Scots you talk of were mere pawns. Look back to the Tudor times, then the famine, the Anglo-Irish treaty & war and more recently events like Bloody Sunday in 1972

It wasnt just the English behind it though was it? It was alao wealthy Irish, wealthy Scots, of all backgrounds and religions, who did it.

Irish and Scots men also joined the British army in great numbers. Were also merchants, landowners, wealthy heads of churches, both CofI and Catholic, business owners, exploiters of the masses and yes even slave owners

BTW Where was the Catholic church during the famine?

The truth is this

There is very little cultural, or genetic, difference between the English, Irish, Scots and Welsh and there never was

It all depends if you are Protestant or catholic. If you are catholic you are Irish but if you are Protestant you are British . I'm from Belfast and just moved to England. People are forever calling me Irish and I am not Irish . I find it offensive to be honest but over here it's hard for people to understand

I used to get a bit, not offended, but uncomfortable with being called Irish because, being from a Northern Ireland Protestant background I had been brought up to believe I was British and by definition couldn't therefore be Irish. Then I had this realisation that my grandparents, who were born before partition, were definitely Irish in the same way that Scottish people can be Scottish but also British, and that slapping a border in didn't suddenly make later generations not Irish. And that's before I got to the part where I grew up and realised that the British government despises us and doesn't want us, yet there we are with half the population desperately trying to be in the gang, like some sort of abusive school bully situation.

So, basically, I feel both Irish and British and yet also neither Irish nor British. I think if I had to pick one, I'd say Irish as that's a more comfortable fit culturally (in terms of social convention.

I think from talking to friends that I'm not that unusual. It's an uncomfortable feeling of not quite belonging.

It's entirely possible to be Protestant and Irish. I am - so are my children, born and bred in Ireland but Protestant by religion. It's possible to be poor Protestant - not all Protestants are descended from rich ancestors, just as not all Catholics are descended from poor tenant farmers.

The famine wasn't so long ago. My mum, when tracing her ancestors, discovered that her grandmother was the youngest of eleven siblings and the only one who survived the famine, so memories are only a few generations ago.

Pleco28

Well my parents are Irish catholics and although technically I'm from a nationalist family background, I'd prefer not to "take a side" if you like since I'm not from here and prefer to remain neutral.

But your post highlights the problem with my overall identity. Protestants don't consider me British, catholics don't consider me Irish, English people don't consider me English and people in the ROI don't consider me Irish either.

So a perfect example of why I don't really identify with anything as everyone considers me an outsider/foreigner.

Ah, I wouldn't worry about it. I spent the first ten years of my life in the UK (Wales and Scotland) being slagged because i was Irish, and the next ten years in Ireland being slagged because I was (apparently) English.

You can be both.And going by the fact that all my cousins (Irish parents, but spent all their life in the UK and never even visited here) are currently applying for pre-Brexit Irish passports, I envy anyone who can be both.

I consider myself Irish. Parents born there, I hold an Irish passport, always put Irish as my nationality.

I have Indian friends, born and raised in england but no one questions their nationality when they say they are Indian. Why should my nationality be brought in to question?

Laburke

But do native born and bred Indians consider your friend to be Indian? Its the same way some 2nd gen Mexican-Americans aren't considered actual Mexicans by the locals rather just "Americans" when they visit Mexico.

Interestingly (imo) attitudes on reclaiming emigrants are different in some countries - I worked in Japan with an American who's great grandparents had mostly emigrated to America in the late 1890s. He "looked Japanese" to an extent although had some other non Japanese ancestors (1 set of grandparents I think). He didn't speak Japanese when he arrived but was learning. He reported that Japanese people frequently expected him to be relieved to be "back" despite understanding that it was his first visit to Japan, and generally have him the impression that they saw him as Japanese and unlike other foreign nationals expected him to be looking for a way to stay in Japan permanently.

"There is very little cultural, or genetic, difference between the English, Irish, Scots and Welsh and there never was"

That's not true. English people tend to have way more Scandinavian blood in them. When I had mine tested there was only 2% Scandinavian. I do agree that Scots, Welsh and Irish are quite similar. Also 'old English' stock like Russell Brand.

English people tend to have way more Scandinavian blood in them.

Do you really think so? Orkney and Shetland only became part of Scotland in the 15th century, before that they belonged to Norway and genetic analysis shows 60% of men in Orkney have Norse ancestors. The Norsemen also settled in the Western Isles where about 30% of men have Norse blood. Ireland was also settled by the Norsemen, and Dublin was a major Viking settlement so I'd assume there would be a reasonable percentage of Norse blood there as well.

The English have a large amount of Anglo Saxon blood, which is not Scandinavian.

(it’s always Cork...?)

That's where their ancestors sailed from. The steeple of the church in Cobh was the last little bit of Ireland they saw.

I think you need to read about Trevelyan again, @Flaxmeadow.

When Irish people speak of 'the British' creating the Famine, they are talking about the government in Westminster and the Ascendancy (the overwhelmingly established protestant and British-identifying ruling class in Ireland) which represented Ireland in Parliament, ran the Poor Law Unions, etc.

Solidarity amongst the proletariat of both islands was never a big thing.