What constitutes to someone being Irish?

[Cybercubed]

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

@GTFOOMW

Well let's put that assertion to the test shall we. Do germans get irate when people endlessly bring up their history, along with the accusatory 'you'?

Do Germans get irate that everyone else wills them to fail, and will pack out bars just to watch their sports matches and hope they lose? Do they chant 'anyone but the Germans'?

Do Germans have to put up with being made to feel unwanted everywhere they go, to the point some bars wont serve them and some people wont talk to them?

No. That treatment is reserved for the English. We are not defensive about our history, we are just tired of it being brought up over and over. If all of the above happened to the Germans, they probably wouldn't be as cool about it.

Saoirse7
'They [English] took over land etc' have you any idea just how significant and defining a point in Irish history this throw away statement is? Educate yourself

It was mostly Scots, not the 'English' you replied to, but those Scots did not own the land

SionnachRua
Eh no, we blame the Famine on you because you are to blame,

Who is you?
English people were working class, they had their own struggles to deal and yes that included famine as well (1790s)

your government cheerfully watched our people starve.

This isnt true either, they didn't 'cheerfully'watch people starve and it was a government the vast majority of people, women and men, couldn't vote for. They had no vote. It wasnt until 1918 that men were fully franchised.

If the gov had wanted people to starve they would have blocked them from migrating to England

That's a historical 'you' really, not aimed at the modern day people.

But you did

I think it’s the Scots who have the ‘anyone but the English’ mentality to sports, not the Irish. I’ve never experienced it a well travelled Ireland supporter married to an England fan.

I’ve also never experienced being barred from a pub or banned from anywhere for being English?!

Anyhow...this thread has certainly brought up some strong feelings.

Ah come on. Are we still harping on about "well you brits killed the irish". Ugh. History is important but how about we all move on from 170 years ago and we just have a go at each other over the rugby?

@GTFOOMW

I was enjoying this thread until the usual 'we had a famine in the 1800s and it's all your fault' stuff came out. I guess today I've run out of eye rolls! Either that or the heat making me irritable!

As an 'Irish heritage' English Catholic myself (who has encountered prejudice from my in laws for being Catholic and therefore not 'English' enough, actually something akin to a traitor), I just get a bit tired of it all. I'm English, would never call myself anything else, but I think a lot of people are desperate to be liked and accepted by Irish people because of the constant blame and abuse we get. They feel they can't be a bit of both, and therefore take the side that is supposedly blameless compared to us.

I just think everyone should put the past behind them and move on.

Anyway, signing off now as trying to avoid MN spats, just be you OP and dont worry about labels x

I just think everyone should put the past behind them and move on.

I agree & wish people would stop assuming that because of my heritage I was a fan of the IRA 🙄

plonkplonk

Is it common for you to still get people saying you're not British because of your Irish heritage? It is of course for people who aren't white, a poster earlier alluded to a person who moved from Ukraine aged 3 being considered English while she of African origin despite being born and raised in the UK is not. I've always felt people of 2nd generation white immigrant backgrounds would get the "you aint English fuck off home" if their ancestry was known, but of course its easier to hide it than it is for someone who is from African or Asian descent.

This is the point I mentioned earlier about not belonging anywhere, some Irish people assume its straightforward for someone of Irish parents to just slot in and be considered British without any problems, my cousins all think this "Why don't you support England, its obvious you're English". I think some of them fail to understand the complex nature of what is like to be 2nd generation ultimately. For every person who says we're not Irish in Ireland, there will be an equivalent in England who will say we're English because our heritage and family history isn't English. So we're stuck in no mans land. I don't mind Irish people not considering me Irish but I wish some of them would understand why I might not generally consider myself British or English either.

@MysteriesOfTheOrganism

In everyday speech we don't distinguish between citizenship and cultural heritage. "I'm Irish" can mean either "I have Irish citizenship" or "My cultural heritage is Irish" - and frequently both.

In the USA they get round this by using the "heritage-nationality" format, such as "Irish-American". It's quite a useful construct.

I hate this terminology.

African American and the rest.

In answer to your question, ethnicity and race plays a part.
It would depend on your ethnicity as to how you describe yourself.

I agree & wish people would stop assuming that because of my heritage I was a fan of the IRA 🙄

Hah I agree, I had this in Germany. I remember just looking at them and thinking "you're a German, you of all people should know better than that"

Who is you?
English people were working class, they had their own struggles to deal and yes that included famine as well (1790s)

Dealt with that multiple times already in the thread, not going over it again. And yes, the Irish were absolutely left to starve. I encourage you to read up about Trevelyan.

In any case, history is history and while we shouldn't get too worked up over it, I think the Irish supporting anyone playing against England is harmless enough when you consider the historical context.

Well I tend to class myself as British because my friends & I decided as teens being British meant being born "here", belonging but having parents from other countries. If that makes sense? I don't consider myself to be English & don't think English people would see me as so. The English people I know don't see me the same as them but I have a Irish name so that marks me as different I guess. I've never been told to "f off home" but I think Im fairly insulated as I spend all my time in London.
When I worked in an international school I found a lot of the staff would see me as Irish maybe cause they saw themselves as German, Swedish etc. It's a weird one because I only stop to think about it when I see threads like this & then I realise that I don't have any close friends that aren't 2nd gen immigrants & when I think about my friendship circle at different workplaces/uni it's the same. Maybe it's just a London thing as I feel a Londoner more than anything else.

I think if you're born in a country and are raised there you're predominantly that nationality, then just heritage from your parents. So id say you're English with Irish heritage.

@SionnachRua 🤔😆 In Jan I overheard someone looking to buy a pet but didn't like the fact the breeder was in Belfast as you can't trust Irish gyppo's. They did look the address up on google & thought the gyppo level looked low risk apparently.

My dad finds the word Paddy offensive & has received a lot more abuse in his time. He used to fly frequently between Dub & Lon & was always stopped.

Without going off on a tangent I think there is a lot of ignorance around Ireland. Some people don't know ROI is different to NI or know why they are separate, or think that the only group involved in the Troubles was the IRA.

I always wonder about people born in NI as I know English people who class them as Irish, ROI people who class them as English & then NI people who say they are Irish & NI who consider themselves vehemently English. 🤷‍♀️

I'm from the NOI and as Irish as anyone from the Republic ffs. If anyone referred to me as British I would NOT be happy! I don't refer to my country as Northern Ireland but the North of Ireland or simply Ireland. God knows how long my heritage goes back.....centuries.

@IHeartSusanDey that's what I mean though as I know people from the ROI who think there are differences & also don't want unification particularly from a financial point of view. I'm not saying it's right by any means.

I think the difference between Germany and England is that the Germany system of government was completely redesigned after WW2 to prevent anything like that ever happening again, and there is a lot of historic guilt about it among Germans. Whereas the British government seems to historically find it very hard to show remorse. The British government of the time did leave the Irish people to starve. But it's a fair point that it was a government few people's ancestors actually voted for. My Irish ancestors came to the north of England during the famine. I am English and southern! Like many, I don't like what Britain has done historically but that has no impact on my identity, which relates to where I was brought up, not where my parents were.

@Bassettgirl

Just to weigh in because you're replying to my point! What does it even matter if our ancestors did vote for that government? Unless you believe in punishing people for the actions of their relatives? Do we punish the children of murderers as well, and endlessly repeat what their parent did, even using the word 'you'?

As for Germany, what the Nazi party (Not the Germans) did was the worst atrocity the world has ever seen - millions of people died in the extermination camps alone, and it was deliberate - the famine was not a deliberate act by the British government, it was a 'let it happen' thing.

Also bear in mind the Nazis had drawn up plans to invade Ireland (operation Sealion I think?) - had it not been for the efforts of the Allies (like Britain) this would have happened. Ireland chose not to get involved, and was essentially defended by other countries that took them on.

But; you wont hear about that, just the famine etc.

My grandparents are in their 90s, lived through the war (but turned 18 shortly after it ended). They lost friends and many relatives in very brutal circumstances, a bomb actually buried my grandpa and he had to be dug out. They have a holiday flat in a large complex, and have made many German friends there. They wouldnt for a second hold their heritage against them.

Basically history is a messy thing and nothing will be achieved by constantly looking backwards.

plonkplonk

Interesting to hear you to talk about primarily having friends with other 2nd gen immigrants and few from English backgrounds whilst growing up. I suppose that's the norm in somewhere as cosmopolitan as London.

I grew up in Ipswich so it was complete opposite. I never knew anyone else whilst growing up having Irish parents, or even Irish grandparents, so I was the odd one out. Bar a sprinkling of Asians everyone else was white English. A lot of my friends had fathers who were in the army during the troubles in NI, some of them didn't have favourable views towards Irish people, so not surprisingly I was sort of the butt of anti Irish jokes being their childs "Irish friend" thinking I was fair game, certainly at school it was passed on to me with regular IRA taunts. I became a bit bitter and resentful over that looking back now, but I suppose its part of the reason why I've never felt British or English. British in Northern Ireland obviously ties in with unionism/loyalism/orange marches which is why I'm sometimes apprehensive about identifying as British here, given my family come from the other side of the divide, but I do have English accent so identifying as Irish will get me some funny looks.

According to Andy Hamilton (Old Harry's Game) you have to have:
An Irish parent;
An Irish grandparent; or
An Irish Setter.

At least, that's the qualification for playing football for Ireland.

I was born in N Ireland - I left when I was 18 - desperate to leave all the bigotry - I don't feel Irish in many ways, I feel like I don't deserve the label.
My dh is English and my kids were born in England - they feel very English, sound very English. I have never sought out Irish people when I travelled - I return to Ireland and I often feel like an "other" - mass was a surreal experience for me - I haven't been in 30 years. Sometimes I feel like I don't connect.
Are you Irish? I don't know, do you feel like you belong there? I have lived in many countries - some I fitted in and some I didn't. I don't know whether it matters a great deal - you can only change you.

The English can be a bit stuffy and unforgiving about heritage, from personal experience. Both my parents were born in Mayo, I spent summers there as a child, have the full Irish passport and all, but because I was born and raised in America, apparently (as was communicated to me by several people here in the UK) I could never be anything other than "American." I haven't actually lived in America for over a decade now, and really feel very disconnected to my place of birth. I really don't think of myself as such.

@MrsMariaReynolds but you’ve said you were born and raised in the US...how are you not American? My bff from uni has more or less the same background as you (Irish parents, grew up in US, every summer in Ireland, Irish passport) and she is very much an American.

An American with Irish parents and Irish citizenship, sure - but that doesn’t take away the fact that that is where she grew up, even if she was 18 when she moved and now lives in Central Europe

Much like I can’t say I’m really native Irish...I don’t see how you can say you’re not American