What constitutes to someone being Irish?

[Cybercubed]

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

DH has two Irish parents, he and his siblings were all born in the UK. The in-laws hold British passports (nationality rules changed between the youngest two and eldest two and they didn’t want to be split up to separate embassies if anything happened while abroad).

FH classes himself as English. BIL thinks he’s Irish. He thinks this because he’d have been given Irish nationality at birth IF his parents hadn’t got British passports. My argument is they did, so he isn’t but 🤷🏻‍♀️

It’s quite common for children like you to be too Irish to be English, and too English to be Irish.

@mathanxiety

(it’s always Cork...?)

That's where their ancestors sailed from. The steeple of the church in Cobh was the last little bit of Ireland they saw.

So not from there then 😂 yup.

To me if you’re born somewhere that’s your nationality. Unless you’ve lived somewhere X amount of years and have a dual nationality. I was born in Wales, live in England have Dutch grandparents on one side and Scottish in the other. I’m Welsh with Scottish and Dutch heritage. If I had a child now, living in England, they would be English with Welsh heritage. Even though DP and I are both Welsh. Well that’s how I see it. My PILs think our child would be Welsh but I don’t agree

So to answer your question, I’d say your English with Irish heritage.

It’s ironic to see if you were born and raised in Ireland that makes it Irish. It doesn’t, ever since the citizenship referendum of 2004 when the Irish voted to make sure that being born in Ireland was not enough to make you Irish. So you can be born and raised in Ireland, speak as gaeilge and play with sliotar but you’re less Irish than someone with an Irish granny they never met who has never set foot on the Emerald Isle.

Sorry that first sentence should say...to see people say that...

To me if you’re born somewhere that’s your nationality.

As my father use to say 'just because you are born in a stable doesn't mean you are a horse'. As I said up thread DH and his siblings were each born in a different country because his parents were working there. That doesn't mean his siblings are all different nationalities. Your nationality is determined by blood (back to a grandparent generally) or by residency or by marriage. Not by an accident of birth.

'I have never sought out Irish people when I travelled - I return to Ireland and I often feel like an "other" - mass was a surreal experience for me - I haven't been in 30 years. Sometimes I feel like I don't connect.'

I feel exactly the same Petronas. I was born in Ireland, two Irish parents, lived there until I was 20 (20 years ago). I feel more at home in the UK than I did in Ireland, and have no sense of 'going home' when I visit there. I have had dual British and Irish nationality for the past 8 years and I guess I feel British with Irish heritage. Its interesting how we all see these things differently

@SionnachRua

Just out of interest, do you acknowledge my previous point? That Ireland let the UK defend it in WW2 and if it wasnt for England (and the other Allies), Ireland wouldve been invaded by the Nazis and suffered an appalling fate?

And if so - why do you never mention this, when it is much more recent than the famine?

To me if you’re born somewhere that’s your nationality

Yes, technically but what if you happened to be born when your parents were visiting a country?
I know it's taking it to the extreme but surely you'd never consider yourself to be FROM that country, you would just happen to have been born there.

Your nationality is determined by blood (back to a grandparent generally) or by residency or by marriage. Not by an accident of birth.

In countries like the US and Canada which operate solely under Jus Soli, birthright's precisely how it is determined.

[quote Wolfgirrl]@SionnachRua

Just out of interest, do you acknowledge my previous point? That Ireland let the UK defend it in WW2 and if it wasnt for England (and the other Allies), Ireland wouldve been invaded by the Nazis and suffered an appalling fate?

And if so - why do you never mention this, when it is much more recent than the famine?[/quote]
Of course. I have no problem in holding up my hands and saying when my people did wrong. I understand why they did it at the time but I'm not in favour of it.

Same goes for Magdalene Laundries or going further back in time, the Scullabogue Barn Massacre. I had nothing to do with either - and in the case of Scullabogue my ancestors wouldn't have been in that part of the country - but I will happily say that we as Irish people fucked up there. I have no issue with my government apologising or taking ownership of either on behalf of the Irish people.

Not sure why it is so hard for people on here to admit the same re: actions of the English?

Oh and neither of those had been mentioned because I was replying to a post about the Irish famine and not Magdalenes/WW2/Scullabogue etc. Hope that helps with the aul reading comprehension.

I was born in Ireland but we left when I was 2 years old. I do not consider myself Irish however as the youngest of 6 some of my older siblings consider themselves Irish, this was probably confirmed by having Irish accents, all of my brothers whilst growing in Wiltshire were nicknamed Paddy, infact one still gets call that (aged 60) so we were obviously viewed as an Irish family even though my parents were both English (mother with Irish heritage).
My husband is Scottish but has lived in England longer than Scotland but due to Scottish accent is always referred to a Scottish, our children are English.

Born in raised in England - you're English ☺

Sorry posted too soon, are children are English (by Birth) but we always refer to them as British, my DH is very sensitive about people using the term English when they mean British.

itscoldouthere

What's wrong with using the term English?

I think this is true for all diaspora nations, not just Ireland. Both my parents are Scots. I was born in Scotland, moved to England as a baby, moved back at 18 to go to university and have now lived here for over 20 years - longer than I lived in England.

I'm still considered English and always will be.

I think accent is actually the core thing, although people like to make it more complicated than that. English accent = English, maybe with some other heritage.

@SionnachRua

But the English government didn't make the famine happen, it wasnt a genocide. Most certainly they were guilty of not doing enough to help, or making the wrong policies. But if you've been following the coronavirus here in England, surely you will see this general incompetence and indifference to the common people is not specifically aimed at Ireland? English people have not been living the high life at the expense of the rest of the UK/Ireland, we have suffered too as a result of our own government - no better demonstrated than in the last 6 months. England has had over 40,000 deaths. Ireland has had 1,700. Disproportionately even accounting for population.

And English people do acknowledge the wrongs of English history, but we won't 'admit' things we didnt personally do. Why should we? As I said before, do you accuse children of murderers of the same crime by association?

Tony Blair made an apology for the famine, yet you're still bringing it up. Which proves you're not really after acknowledgement, you just want to moan about it all the time. When has Ireland ever apologised to the UK for not helping in WW2 and leaving hundreds of thousands of English men to act as their human shield?

Solidarity amongst the proletariat of both islands was never a big thing

You couldn't be more wrong. There was solidarity between the English, Irish, Welsh and Scots labouring class in the 19th century, the most famous and popular Chartist in England was an Irish man, and also famously in the early 20th century solidarity during massed strike action and lock outs during the genral strike known AKA the Great Unrest.

When the Irish migrated to urban industrial England in the mid 19th century they were welcomed into English trade union organisations as "brothers". There are many accounts of this

The religous divides and segregation seen in the late 20th century hardly existed before. When whatever someones religion, they still considered themselves Irish and called themselves Irish, and there was often inter marriage and changes in denomination.

The campaign for Irish independence was started by Protestants/Presbyterians

@Cybercubed well if you are Scottish, Irish or Welsh you can get pissed off at things being referred to as English when they are infact British.
This is something many English people don’t realise.
Nothing wrong with calling something English if you are only referring to England, however I personally consider myself and my children as British.

That's not true. English people tend to have way more Scandinavian blood in them. When I had mine tested there was only 2% Scandinavian. I do agree that Scots, Welsh and Irish are quite similar. Also 'old English' stock like Russell Brand.

There is very little Scandinavian, or for that matter Anglo Saxon, DNA heritage in most parts of England. This was one of the surprises of the huge DNA research carried out by Oxford uni and the Welcome Trust, when they tested thousands of British people.

As with Ireland, most English/British DNA heritage is from the iron age, the pre Roman era

Infact there is probably more Scandinavian heritage in some Irish ports than in most of England. Dublin for example was founded by the Vikings and was an important trade route

People have moved around these isles and inter married for thousands of years. North Western Europeans is more accurate. The idea of peoples being Anglo Saxon or Viking or Celt etc is seen as very dated now. These are eras or a ruling class, not ethnicities

I was born in England (just Over the border ) but grew up in wales & have welsh family on both sides, first language welsh.

I consider myself Welsh.

Ah, the '97 Blair statement. Fun fact about that, he doesn't actually apologise for the Famine. Read it again. I will give him kudos for what he said as I think it was a big step forward at the time and was helpful in regards to the GFA but an apology it ain't.

Also important to note that I have said nothing about either apologies or genocide, you are the one bringing that up. Some historians term the Famine genocide, yes. I sit on the fence about it personally.

I also don't think the response to Coronavirus and allowing their own subjects to starve (at a time when Ireland produced enough food) are remotely comparable things but you do you.

God, we need an edit post option on this don't we? I forgot to add that tbh, an apology re: the Famine doesn't really matter to me.

What matters to me is being able to admit what happened in the past. The Irish were left to starve during the Famine. The Bengals were left to starve during their famine. Jewish people were persecuted by the Germans. The women in Magdalene laundries were abused by the nuns/government who colluded in it. The Native Americans were treated abominably during the Trail of Tears (to name just one issue)...

None of these should be difficult for any person to acknowledge. It's not a judgement on modern people, it's a judgement on the nation of the past and a look at how what they did impacts us today. We learn from history. Shoving it away because it's uncomfortable is nonsense. It's also nonsense to say people should just get over it all when so much has happened relatively recently between the two countries.