What constitutes to someone being Irish?

[Cybercubed]

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

Actually, lots of wealthy and powerful Irish collaborated with the Nazis. It's not even a secret. And now they are outright telling us again

"We are all in this together".

@Mimishimi

Actually, lots of wealthy and powerful Irish collaborated with the Nazis. It's not even a secret. And now they are outright telling us again

"We are all in this together".

Indeed this is true www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1538969/Ireland-welcomed-Hitlers-henchmen.html

I didnt say 'grateful' I said 'flattered'. Its almost getting paranoid on your part now.

@Wolfgirrl eh, maybe reread mathanxiety's post. Paranoid eh?

Ireland can be smug when the same doesn’t happen there. It’s incredibly racist in Ireland so let’s see who sells up when an area becomes ‘too black’ or ‘too Asian’.

So when people refused to live near Irish and black people in England, it was just good financial sense. But "if" the same happens in Ireland, it will be because the country is incredibly racist? You're right, you do have prejudices.

@Elasticate

Not at all, it was racism. I'm happy to admit that because that's what it was.

@Elasticate

But I didnt say 'grateful'. You're paraphrasing.

@Elasticate

Ireland can be smug when the same doesn’t happen there. It’s incredibly racist in Ireland so let’s see who sells up when an area becomes ‘too black’ or ‘too Asian’.

So when people refused to live near Irish and black people in England, it was just good financial sense. But "if" the same happens in Ireland, it will be because the country is incredibly racist? You're right, you do have prejudices.

The two are the same thing. People didn’t sell up because they couldn’t bear the sight of a ‘foreign’ person living nearby. They sold because they believed property prices would reduce as a result of an area becoming a ‘black area’ or an ‘Asian area’ or an ‘Irish area’. Which then generates a self fulfilling prophecy as more people sell and prices fall in those areas and as prices fall it becomes more rental than owner occupied and so you get more social problems and society associates those problems with that race. See Neasden, Willesden, Cricklewood in the 80s.

But your response makes my point well. Irish people believe racism means not being willing to live near ‘foreigners’ because you hate them so much and you clearly believe moving away for financial reasons isn’t also racist. Because you claim that’s what I was saying. Racism is rarely that blatant.

So I rest my case. My point throughout this thread has been that the Irish believe they aren’t racist because they don’t yet recognise what racism is. It doesn’t matter what the reason for racism is. It doesn’t matter if it’s intentional or not. But within Ireland, racism is still excused if you ‘didn’t mean anything by it’.

@Wolfgirrl neither did mathanxiety!

Irish people believe racism means not being willing to live near ‘foreigners’ because you hate them so much and you clearly believe moving away for financial reasons isn’t also racist. Because you claim that’s what I was saying. Racism is rarely that blatant

I was summarising the point that you made and as you say, the blatant racism therein.

@Mimishimi - -Actually, lots of wealthy and powerful Irish collaborated with the Nazis. It's not even a secret. And now they are outright telling us again

If I recall correctly, there was plenty of overt support for the Nazis amongst the British elite, including one of your kings, prior to the war.

So in summary, because I'm a bit bored of this thread now and feel we are going back and forth:

When England does something wrong, even if it was 200 years ago, every English person is indirectly responsible and has a duty to read up on Irish history, show contrition by nodding solemnly as our country is berated, and basically show the Irish respect that we would never be shown ourselves. This is because we happened to be born on the same patch of soil that was ruled over by a King who wrongly stole some land in Ireland 200 years ago.

When Ireland does something wrong, whether it be enslaving pregnant girls and having their babies forcibly adopted or collaborating with the Nazi party, it is not at all Ireland's fault (let alone Irish people) because it is inevitably the fault of others - usually the English or the Catholic Church. There is no obligation on the Irish to read up on the history of any other country and the effect their ills had on it, much less show any kind of personal remorse. Because although they may be born on the same patch of soil as people who committed these atrocities, it has nothing to do with them and the events should have no reflection on the country today.

So, there we have it 🤷‍♀️ I'm going to mute this thread now because I've said everything I have to say.

People didn’t sell up because they couldn’t bear the sight of a ‘foreign’ person living nearby. They sold because they believed property prices would reduce as a result of an area becoming a ‘black area’ or an ‘Asian area’ or an ‘Irish area’.

Except the 'no blacks, no dogs, no Irish' signs were in areas that were already all rental. They were already poor areas.

My parents experienced this in the 60's in London. They experienced dreadful anti-Irish bigotry.

@Wolfgirrl nobody on this thread has blamed individual English people for history. Irish history is English history because Ireland was part of the UK so that is why Irish people expect that English people would know their own country's history.

Nobody defended the Magdalen laundries and those events very much do reflect on the country today and the country is still working through that and trying to provide support (but not enough in my opinion) to women and children affected by the laundries and industrial schools.

@Elasticate

Irish people believe racism means not being willing to live near ‘foreigners’ because you hate them so much and you clearly believe moving away for financial reasons isn’t also racist. Because you claim that’s what I was saying. Racism is rarely that blatant

I was summarising the point that you made and as you say, the blatant racism therein.

No you weren’t. You said I was arguing that I was saying it wasn’t racism, it was ‘sound financial sense’. I wasn’t. But you did.

Mother of God. I knew when I saw the thread title that this would end up as a bunfight.

OP - I'm Irish, I lived in London for 10 years. My children were born there. We moved home when they started school. They consider themselves Irish (just asked them but love that they were born in London (possibly more because it makes them a bit different)). We had a great life and great friends in the UK.

My American cousins are all over their Irish ancestry. My English cousins are very proud of their Irish heritage while being quintessentially English (No GAA, Irish dancing etc) and yes they all live in England.

Wolfgirl seems to be on a one woman mission to bend us to her views on why we should be grateful to the British for all they did for us over the years and apologise for being a Neutral country. These threads always blow up and never end well. We know our history, we don't live it day to day, we are too busy getting on with our lives. And yes we were oppressed by English rule for 800 years. That takes a bit of getting over, we've put down 100 years so far but have a bit to go yet. We (Irish people, as sweeping me, you, and they seem to really piss flaxmeadow off) will defend ourselves in any forum where we are being told to get over our selves and move on, it was all a long time ago. Wolfgirl left the thread at least 3 times by page 24 (when I stopped reading) but she just feels that we are not getting the poor labourers and Victorian peasants were having it just as bad as those in the famine at the same time and keeps coming back to press the same points. The sooner this thread fills the better, FFS

[quote OchonAgusOchonO]**@Mimishimi* - -Actually, lots of wealthy and powerful Irish collaborated with the Nazis. It's not even a secret. And now they are outright telling us again*

If I recall correctly, there was plenty of overt support for the Nazis amongst the British elite, including one of your kings, prior to the war.[/quote]
But not once Nazi atrocities were known.

Prior to the war, eugenics as a concept had much support.

Ireland was unusual in welcoming the Nazis after the atrocities were known. That’s what sets them apart.

But you did

No, I absolutely did not.

You said People didn’t sell up because they couldn’t bear the sight of a ‘foreign’ person living nearby so forgive me for presuming you didn't think this was racist.

Apparently we both agree that it was racism. I am glad you can acknowledge that there is racism in every country.

Oh good grief this thread has taken off since I was last here

@OchonAgusOchonO

People didn’t sell up because they couldn’t bear the sight of a ‘foreign’ person living nearby. They sold because they believed property prices would reduce as a result of an area becoming a ‘black area’ or an ‘Asian area’ or an ‘Irish area’.

Except the 'no blacks, no dogs, no Irish' signs were in areas that were already all rental. They were already poor areas.

My parents experienced this in the 60's in London. They experienced dreadful anti-Irish bigotry.

So did mine. My parents married in London in the 60s.

The point made about people selling up to escape the foreigners ignores the fact that there was a perception that an area was declining if those people were moving in and why that perception existed.

There was a fear of ‘other’ - that is what drove the anti Irish and anti black sentiment in London. But Ireland isn’t immune to that - they will face their own challenges combatting the same issues there. They haven’t needed to before because they had minimal inward immigration. They will hopefully learn from elsewhere but more likely history will repeat itself. Less blatantly one hopes. But it will still happens. Overt or covert there will be problems.

@OchonAgusOchonO yes there were the "no blacks, no dogs, no Irish" signs in England.

Aswell as this:

Many Polish people have said to me, that in Ireland they are treated like they are subhuman. One Polish woman said to me, that in her workplace in Dublin, the Irish manager will only talk to the Irish employees, she completely refuses to talk to the Polish employees.

We know that this happens in Ireland. So Ireland has done this too - made foreigners lives a total misery when they come here

I mean. have you seen the nastiness directed towards the Polish community in Ireland? It is extreme.

@Elasticate

But you did

No, I absolutely did not.

You said People didn’t sell up because they couldn’t bear the sight of a ‘foreign’ person living nearby so forgive me for presuming you didn't think this was racist.

Apparently we both agree that it was racism. I am glad you can acknowledge that there is racism in every country.

Of course it was. It exists everywhere. Most Irish people I know living in Ireland think they aren’t racist. My point is they are as racist as other countries. But they have yet to do anything to tackle that because they have never needed to in the past.

@Sarahpaula

I mean. have you seen the nastiness directed towards the Polish community in Ireland? It is extreme.

Yes I’ve seen it - and how patronising the Irish are toward the Polish.

Ireland was unusual in welcoming the Nazis after the atrocities were known. That’s what sets them apart.

Firstly, the full extent of the atrocities were not known until after the war.

Secondly, Ireland did not support the Nazis.

Thirdly, individuals who were agitation for a united Ireland would naturally look to the enemy of the occupying force for support.