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What constitutes to someone being Irish?

999 replies

Cybercubed · 18/08/2020 23:58

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

OP posts:
Ihaventgottimeforthis · 27/08/2020 13:38

Thanks mathanxiety, it's certainly food for thought.

I think there can't be a more tenuous familial link than my DF never having met his biological dad (did he even know DF existed?) and his DM leaving him in a mother & baby home at 9 months old.
But I think technically we could prove the connection.
The question of do we try to trace our Irish relatives, and stir up the whole family history and my DF's sad story, is another thing entirely, and is what is holding me back.

mathanxiety · 27/08/2020 22:01

Essentially, you are saying that your beliefs about 'racist Ireland' cause you to predict that the ghost of Enoch Powell could deliver his 'Rivers of Blood' speech today and find lots of eager people agreeing with him, @MMN123. You have written off the whole of Ireland and the Irish, and that is not only sad but quite racist.

If you think the 1950s are over in the UK, you need to think again. Do you remember that 'Breaking Point' poster that apparently the majority of voters in England and Wales shrugged about?

Dowser · 27/08/2020 22:08

My great grandparents on my dads side and on my mums side we’re Irish.
I don’t consider myself Irish.
Bit of a mongrel really.
One set of great grandparents then moved to Scotland and my grandfather was born in fife
So do I have SCottish blood as well.
I have english blood from both great grandmothers.

mathanxiety · 27/08/2020 22:09

I believe you could find the documentation to prove descent from an Irish grandparent without necessarily getting involved with long lost relatives, @Ihaventgottimeforthis.

It might involve hiring a genealogist (or more than one, to deal with particular issues in both the UK and Ireland) but looking up records online on your own might produce results too.

mathanxiety · 27/08/2020 22:15

@MMN123
Why the determination not to believe us?
I wouldn’t raise children in Ireland today for all the tea in China.

Do you understand the difference between anecdote and general statement of fact that applies to a wider situation? To judge from your posts here, I don't think you do.

Of course there are individual horror stories. But making a general rule about all Irish people, which you have done here, based on your own or random individuals' poor experiences in Ireland is pure racism.

mathanxiety · 27/08/2020 22:30

Britain is dealing with the legacy of the 50s and 60s and how the early generations were treated. They had no reference point at the time.

@MMN123
They had hundreds of years of an imperial legacy to draw on, and that still isn't over. Hence apartheid in Northern Ireland, which Westminster turned a blind eye to for decades. Hence the appeal of the Breaking Point poster. Hence the impetus behind Brexit.

The UK had the experience of being on the thin end of the Nazi wedge and the knowledge of Nazi concentration camps as a reference point. But that was all other people's misdeeds, which could all be blamed on the fact that the offenders were Huns. There was nothing to be learned from abroad about how societies become hostile environments. Have you heard that phrase recently, btw?

It has become increasingly clear to me after seeing thread after thread here that no accurate historical appraisal of the British Empire is taught in British schools.

mathanxiety · 27/08/2020 22:40

Unlike Germany, Britain has never faced up to its past and still teaches a ‘we were the good guys’ national history.

I agree @Eyewhisker.

It's very obvious from the posts of several posters here.

Wolfgirrl · 27/08/2020 23:26

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stairway · 28/08/2020 00:29

I don’t think the English are that unaware of our past. I think we are the only nation in the world who can’t hang their national flag outside or mention any national pride without feeling like a racist or a thug. The Germans I’ve met though aware of their past all have a deep sense of national pride. That is why the English seem to make such a thing about the poppy, a small part of history we are allowed to be proud of.

workhomesleeprepeat · 28/08/2020 01:58

@mathanxiety I experienced many instances of racism in Ireland. My father is Irish. It’s the only passport I have. I am mixed race.

Is everyone in Ireland racist? Of course not. Did I experience so much racism that I would really have to think about whether I raised my children in my fathers home country? Yes for sure. I actually find it very hurtful that you think that ‘individual horror stories’ don’t amount to trauma for those of us who have experienced racism. It seems like you think these are little stories that can be dismissed. They were actually all very sad and dehumanizing experiences for me.

As I have expressed earlier in the thread, I liked living in Ireland overall, and I like visiting. Racism was only one part of my experience. I hope it’s changed, Ireland has had so many changes for the better in recent years, and I hope other poc in Ireland don’t have experiences like I had

MMN123 · 28/08/2020 05:58

@mathanxiety

Essentially, you are saying that your beliefs about 'racist Ireland' cause you to predict that the ghost of Enoch Powell could deliver his 'Rivers of Blood' speech today and find lots of eager people agreeing with him, *@MMN123*. You have written off the whole of Ireland and the Irish, and that is not only sad but quite racist.

If you think the 1950s are over in the UK, you need to think again. Do you remember that 'Breaking Point' poster that apparently the majority of voters in England and Wales shrugged about?

Not today. It’s still mostly behind closed doors and will likely escalate over time. Give it a decade or so.

Yes it’s terribly sad. I agree. I’ve elected not to take my partner to my home country - it’s incredibly sad. It’s not a decision I made lightly.

And no I haven’t seen the breaking point poster. Presumably something UKIPy? There’s always someone spouting nonsense so I likely didn’t register it.

At the moment Ireland is extremely early in the journey to multiculturalism. I hope the country adapts without repeating what has been seen elsewhere. But I’m not about to use my own partner as a test case.

MMN123 · 28/08/2020 06:06

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MMN123 · 28/08/2020 06:17

@mathanxiety

Britain is dealing with the legacy of the 50s and 60s and how the early generations were treated. They had no reference point at the time.

@MMN123
They had hundreds of years of an imperial legacy to draw on, and that still isn't over. Hence apartheid in Northern Ireland, which Westminster turned a blind eye to for decades. Hence the appeal of the Breaking Point poster. Hence the impetus behind Brexit.

The UK had the experience of being on the thin end of the Nazi wedge and the knowledge of Nazi concentration camps as a reference point. But that was all other people's misdeeds, which could all be blamed on the fact that the offenders were Huns. There was nothing to be learned from abroad about how societies become hostile environments. Have you heard that phrase recently, btw?

It has become increasingly clear to me after seeing thread after thread here that no accurate historical appraisal of the British Empire is taught in British schools.

I went to school in Ireland.

The average British person had little or no experience living alongside people of colour until the 1950s.

The average Irish person had little or no experience living alongside people of colour until 50 years later - unless they spent time abroad.

I haven’t heard that phrase recently - should I have?

I hope Ireland will avoid the mistakes of the UK and France and other countries. I don’t understand why they prepared so little to support immigrants - basic training to teachers across all schools on how not to be blatantly discriminatory for example. That wouldn’t have been difficult to implement. Instead we have a generation of immigrant children who have been let down. It’s a pity and there is no excuse for it - the country could have prepared. But then I think they never really expected change to happen.

MMN123 · 28/08/2020 06:18

@mathanxiety

Unlike Germany, Britain has never faced up to its past and still teaches a ‘we were the good guys’ national history.

I agree @Eyewhisker.

It's very obvious from the posts of several posters here.

Again, I’m Irish.
mathanxiety · 28/08/2020 06:33

So a Two Part question there, @Wolfgirrl. It's hard to know where to start on dismantling your misplaced assumptions.

A good deal of facing up to the past undoubtedly involves the history curriculum. An overhaul of what is taught under the flag of 'history' in UK schools might be well overdue, if this thread is any indication.

The new curriculum would cover the slave trade in detail, of course, including the origins of the cotton that was spun in the mills of Lancashire and the working conditions of those who produced the raw material for that. Right now, what tends to be spouted about here is that Britain led the charge to abolish the slave trade, with the rest of Britain's involvement conveniently forgotten.

Also prominent should be the history of the British Empire, including Britain's vast and impressive contribution to the art and science of total war - concentration camps, aerial bombing of civilian populations, burning of cities, approach to famine (see Ireland, India), ethnic cleansing, penal colonies overseas, and the list goes on.

The curriculum would include Ireland from 1800 to 1922 since Ireland was an integral part of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland during those years. This bit might be a real eye opener.

It should also include the history of the oppression of women in the four nations of the UK. You gloat that the UK is somehow more progressive than Ireland on this score but fail to note, as with the abolition of slavery, that women didn't actually have it so good in the UK until relatively recently - hence the need for 'progressive' policies to address past wrongs. You seem either resistant or maybe just unaware of the fact that membership of the EEC spurred a lot of progressive legislation in the UK since joining in 1973, including the Sex Discrimination Act of 1975. Advances in UK social policy and workers' rights since joining the EEC would be a cool topic to explore. Was it 1991 when raping your wife became a crime? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum - I have yet to hear any hue and cry about the thousands of British women incarcerated in these institutions over the 200 or so years they operated in Britain.

The curriculum could move on to the treatment of British children in 'care' during the 20th century, after noting child labour in mines and mills and as chimney sweeps, etc., during Britain's industrial heyday. Especial mention could be made of the export of c. 150,000 of the children of the British poor to Australia, New Zealand, Rhodesia, and Canada between 1920 and 1970. The aim of this monstrous endeavour was to help populate the Commonwealth with good white stock, and maybe the implications of this policy could be examined in the context of the decline of Empire and attitudes of the British Establishment toward the British poor, men and women, girls and boys alike. I do remember hearing a little about the treatment of children a few years ago, mainly from Australian reports. Sadly, those left behind in British institutional care fared little better.

Funny how the current Cambridge A and AS level syllabus omits specific reference to Ireland, Northern Ireland, India and Pakistan, but does Hitler in depth. It's up to individual teachers to take their own approach with the syllabus as a guideline, I suppose, but the omissions are glaring.

'Ireland' and the slave trade - a bit of a contradiction there since Ireland had disappeared as a political entity by the time the slave trade started gathering steam. I suppose it suits your purposes to make distinctions that are not based on historical fact between Ireland and Britain when you wish to cast aspersions on Ireland, yet to insist on common cause in other circumstances. Do you devote any energy to fulmination and outrage about 'Scotland and the slave trade' or 'Wales and the slave trade' or 'England and the slave trade'?
docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Pu8W4uE8Eht6OjBDiCC1TULLZw3L4zXPpHA1d4D_1mw/edit#gid=1035370983
List of compensated enslavers with residences in Ireland (whole island).
About 100 different individuals, either born or based in Ireland, benefited directly from compensation for loss of income from enslaved people; (compared to approximately 36 from Wales, 394 from Scotland and 1,879 from England). [from an article by Liam Hogan].
The vast majority of these people would have slapped you upside the head if you had called them Irish. If slavery benefited Irish society so much, please account for levels of poverty in Ireland in the 18th and 19th centuries. Maybe you believe in trickle-down-economics?

As for facing up to 'Ireland's' profit from slavery, I suppose Irish cities could now rename all the streets which still commemorate enslavers or prominent supporters of slavery after whom they were named. Westmorland Street in Dublin springs to mind. It's named after the 10th Earl of Westmorland, John Fane, a staunch defender of slavery. He was Lord Lieutenant of Ireland from 1789 to 1794. It might be necessary to eliminate all traces of the La Touche family from public view too. But would that be seen as offensive point-scoring? Unreasonable antipathy to all things English? The symbolic value of toppling statues or changing street names cannot be denied, or can it?

historicengland.org.uk/images-books/publications/slavery-and-british-country-house/slavery-british-country-house-web/
The great Irish country houses can be included in this account. They were established in the same era, by the same sort of people.

Foxywoody · 28/08/2020 06:46

If you were born in England you are English. If you were born in Ireland you are Irish. If you were born in Northern Ireland well that's a whole different scenario 😂.

Wolfgirrl · 28/08/2020 07:59

@mathanxiety

As large and impressive an essay as that is, once again, it is demanding England take responsibility for its history, while making endless excuses for Ireland. Excuses which could also be applied to England, if your critical thinking skills allowed it. But of course, they don't.

If slavery benefited Irish society so much, please account for levels of poverty in Ireland in the 18th and 19th centuries.

Poverty in England in the 18th Century

In the 18th century probably half the population lived at subsistence or bare survival level. In the early part of the century, England suffered from gin drinking. It was cheap and it was sold everywhere as you did not need a license to sell it. Many people ruined their health by drinking gin. Yet for many poor people drinking gin was their only comfort. The situation improved after 1751 when a tax was imposed on gin.

In the 18th century craftsmen and laborers lived in 2 or 3 rooms. The poorest people lived in just one room. Their furniture was very simple and plain. Despite the improvements in farming methods during the 18th century food for ordinary people remained plain and monotonous. For them, meat was a luxury. They lived mainly on bread, butter, potatoes, and tea.

During the 18th century the Poor Law continued to operate. In the 17th century, there were some workhouses where the poor were housed but where they were made to work. They became much more common in the 18th century.

It is hypocritical in the extreme that you accuse Britain of not acknowledging its history with the list of flimsy excuses you're making. Particularly when it comes to womens rights, you should be ashamed.

Howallergic · 28/08/2020 08:26

This shite about women's rights is just a stick to beat the Irish with. It wasn't us. It was the fucking Catholic Church. When we got free from England, they, the Catholic Church, took over. We're only now in the last decade really free and you can see how we really actually feel now. We're clearly a very outward thinking and forward thinking nation. Probably as a result of the impact of our global diaspora on our thinking.

SoManyActivities · 28/08/2020 08:31

Wow @Wolfgirrl you are still going on this thread? You have got some stamina girl, I'll give you that - you must really dislike the Irish!

Wolfgirrl · 28/08/2020 08:36

@Howallergic

This shite about women's rights is just a stick to beat the Irish with. It wasn't us. It was the fucking Catholic Church.

I'm actually laughing.

I can only imagine the reaction if we said, 'This shite about the empire is just a stick to beat the English with. It was the fucking government and wealthy elite'.

Which, when you think about it, it a better 'excuse' - normal people didn't worship the elite, choose to believe everything they said & even mistreat their own family as a result.

Can you please tell me why, when it comes to the Irish, it is perfectly acceptable to blame their poor behaviour on any influencing factors, whereas with the English this is unacceptable and we are all undoubtedly to blame?

@SoManyActivities

I left for ages and just got dragged back into it again! Many of the irish posters have posted far more than me. They must really hate the English Smile

Howallergic · 28/08/2020 08:43

Can you please tell me why you're on this fucking thread?

If I see a thread about the Dutch, I don't go on it pontificating. I wouldn't even open it. What is it that attracts you so much about the Irish? Jealous?

Howallergic · 28/08/2020 08:46

You're not Irish so you're ill equipped to answer the question asked in the OP. All you've done is write a load of anti-Irish pro-England shite and derailed the thread entirely. Nobody cares what you think!!! You're not fucking Irish! And as for whinging????????????

Wolfgirrl · 28/08/2020 08:55

@Howallergic

What's the matter? Cant answer my post properly?

DameHannahRelf · 28/08/2020 09:25

Wolfgirrl you're like a broken record, with all that repeating yourself. It's head melty. You hate the Irish, the Irish are evil, we get it.

Wolfgirrl · 28/08/2020 09:37

@DameHannahRelf

Sigh. Still no real answer.