What constitutes to someone being Irish?

[Cybercubed]

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

I’m also aware that many people will profess to have no prejudice but will then behave in a manner that demonstrates prejudice!!

Irony, eh?
@MMN123

So not from there then 😂
yup.

Why is it funny that people who very likely spoke a language other than English would not be able to communicate to their English speaking children and grandchildren the exact location of their birth, @Shesapunkpunk?

@Wolfgirrl
I never understand posts like that. 'Go and read some books' isnt a point. Especially when you cant say which ones or what they are about

There is no need to be so suspicious of invitations to educate yourself, and really no need for me to supply you with a booklist either.

But here I am, going the extra mile.

"Behind the Green Curtain: Ireland’s phoney neutrality during World War II"
T. Ryle Dwyer

"Spying on Ireland: British Intelligence and Irish Neutrality during the Second World War."
Eunan O'Halpin

These two should help.

I’d say you’d be Irish if you had Irish citizenship or both your parents do (if one then half). Americans say that they’re Irish even if it’s their granddad or great great granddad. I don’t think that counts though I wouldn’t say I’m Irish, even though my granddad is.

@Wolfgirrl
England's bad past deserves to be taught in schools & repeated forever more.

Ireland's bad past cannot be mentioned else it is 'hate'

This is the problem that buying and reading a few books should cure.

My DF was brought up in an orphanage during the 40s/50s - we recently did an ancestry DNA test as we thought (family legend) that his father could have been a German PoW.

Whoops post too soon.
Turns out both his parents were Irish who came over here during the war.
So his (and my) heritage is Irish, we presumably have family there (who we will never meet) but I would never consider myself remotely Irish.
But, if my DCs did research their family history further, what would it take for them to claim Irish heritage?

Or born there (and parents too). Just read some of your replies. I’m mixed race, which is a bit different to growing up in a country that your parents are from. I faced some racism and my Irish granddad (grew up in England) told me about the prejudice he faced as a child in the 50s. Just ignore the haters! I’d say you’re Irish because both your parents are.

Some posters seem to be conflating what the Catholic Church did to the Irish as what the Irish did to themselves.

The Catholic Church is responsible the world over for similar 'sins'.

It is only now, that we're both wise to the Church and England that you'll find who Ireland truly is.

@Howallergic

MMN if I'm not incorrect, you've stated that you're Irish. Why would Irish 'staunch republicans' dislike you for being Irish?

English father.

Another kid at school had an English single mother who moved there when he was about 10. They had no family there. Same teachers were horrible to him.

By horrible I mean corporal punishment was illegal by then but one teacher I remember would physically hit us both. No other kids were ever hit. The connection is obvious now - I didn’t get it when I was 11 and had no idea why she was always so angry toward me when I wasn’t doing anything wrong.

So you were beaten at school and you attribute that to you having an English father?

The marriage bar (married women not allowed to work) was lifted everywhere else in Europe in the 1950's, it was kept in Ireland until the 1970's.
@Sarahpaula
Actually, various forms of discrimination against women in the workplace, including marriage bars in several professions, were a thing in the UK until after the UK joined the EEC and was pressed to introduce the Sex Discrimination Act of 1975. And the UK saw its share of mother and child homes run by all sorts of religious denominations and charities, as well as derision of unmarried mothers, sexual exploitation of children in care, cruelty to vulnerable children, and the exporting of the children of the poor in their thousands to the colonies.

The othering of unmarried mothers continues to this day - look at public discourse on the topic of welfare since the 60s for an example. You know what they say about not letting the facts get in the way of a good rant...

@mathanxiety

It was certainly strange. Like being in the twilight zone. I could hear the women seated behind me commenting on how gorgeous all the lovely little black girls were with their little plaits. Nobody thought it was racist.

@MMN123
Could you explain to Wolfgirrl how it might be perceived as racist to suggest that Irish people should be flattered that someone in the UK chose to use an Irish name?

I don’t believe it should be.

She didn’t suggest they should be grateful. She said they should be flattered.

If I name my child Manuela and I have no connection to Spain or Priya with no connection to India or Sergei with no connection to Russia then I would expect anyone from those countries to take the view that I liked their traditional name so much that I set aside all options from my country and my families traditional names to choose their name. What’s not to be flattered about?

But, if my DCs did research their family history further, what would it take for them to claim Irish heritage?
@Ihaventgottimeforthis
You would need the name and birthplace of an Irish grandparent. In your case it would most likely be the through your father's mother as her name is the most likely to be on your father's original birth records. If you can find the name of either of your father's parents and track down an Irish place of birth, then it may be possible to claim citizenship for yourself (the grandchild of those Irish immigrants). You would need to research the implications of your claim to citizenship for your children but I suspect they would be entitled to it through you.

www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/irish_citizenship/irish_citizenship_through_birth_or_descent.html

@mathanxiety

why should they [the British poor] have or feel a debt of colonial guilt?

@Flaxmeadow
Maybe ask the people who sold their houses en masse when Pakistani and Afro-Caribbean families arrived?
And the landladies who put up signs discouraging Irish, blacks and dogs from applying for a room?
Enoch Powell wasn't talking to himself in his speech of 20 April 1968.

The British poor are not homeowners in naice areas who sold up when ethnic minorities arrived. And they certainly weren’t landlords.

And don’t go getting too smug. Let’s see how Ireland fares in the next 20 years in terms of how it treats incomes. I predict badly.

@mathanxiety

I’m also aware that many people will profess to have no prejudice but will then behave in a manner that demonstrates prejudice!!

Irony, eh?
@MMN123

I don’t claim to have no prejudice!!

She didn’t suggest they should be grateful. She said they should be flattered.
@MMN123
That's 'pretzel logic', as they say, on your part.

Wolfgirrl thinks the Irish should be flattered that some British person chose an Irish name. They should see it as a compliment/flattery.
But you think the black girls should see compliments/flattery about their braided hair as a racist insult.

And head tilt...

The British poor are not homeowners in naice areas who sold up when ethnic minorities arrived. And they certainly weren’t landlords.

@MMN123
But they sold up, in droves, and moved from their terraced houses in red brick towns of the north and in London.

And they did indeed rent out rooms (they were 'landladies' renting out 'digs' and providing breakfast and an evening meal, not 'landlords' renting out flats or houses as understood these days).

But a great many would not rent to Irish or blacks.

Do they teach history in UK schools at all?

@Howallergic

So you were beaten at school and you attribute that to you having an English father?

Yes. The teacher in question I now know was well known to be a staunch republican - obviously as a child I didn’t know that - and the only children she assaulted in the class were the two with English parents.

She also regularly turned the classes attention to him or to me when teaching history and would say ‘MMN123 (or X) will know all about this because she is from England’.

As a primary school child I concluded that you were meant to be born with some innate knowledge of the place you were born and figured I was bad at it, which is why she would get so angry with me.

Thanks mathanxiety - we did manage to trace birth records of both my DFs parents, it appears neither of them returned home & both died in the UK.
Some people have contacted us from Ireland, possible first cousins wanting to build a family tree, but it's not something that interests me & in fact is quite distressing for some reason.
I don't consider myself to be remotely Irish & I would never seriously consider applying for citizenship, unless Brexit continues to go tits up maybe!
However I can't speak for my DCs who when they are older may want to delve deeper. Could they ever call themselves Irish & be taken seriously?

@mathanxiety

She didn’t suggest they should be grateful. She said they should be flattered. *@MMN123* That's 'pretzel logic', as they say, on your part.

Wolfgirrl thinks the Irish should be flattered that some British person chose an Irish name. They should see it as a compliment/flattery.
But you think the black girls should see compliments/flattery about their braided hair as a racist insult.

And head tilt...

Oh sorry I was referencing the fact the women behind me were looking at 20+ children lined up on stage by skin tone and their only comment was how gorgeous they are with their little plaits. Not that the scene they were looking at was wrong in every possible way.

@mathanxiety

The British poor are not homeowners in naice areas who sold up when ethnic minorities arrived. And they certainly weren’t landlords.

@MMN123
But they sold up, in droves, and moved from their terraced houses in red brick towns of the north and in London.

And they did indeed rent out rooms (they were 'landladies' renting out 'digs' and providing breakfast and an evening meal, not 'landlords' renting out flats or houses as understood these days).

But a great many would not rent to Irish or blacks.

Do they teach history in UK schools at all?

I’m Irish. And my parents were affected by then when they married and dad realised the no Irish signs applied to his wife.

People had invested their money in property.
They moved, and still move, when they believe prices in the area are taking a downturn. Irish people and black people moving to an area correlated with a reduction in property values and triggered a cascade of people moving, driving prices down further. It still happens. An Irish traveller community was settled near friends of mine in the UK and house prices locally plummeted. It hasn’t changed. It’s just illegal to put it in the paper now. Same with homophobia. It hasn’t gone away.

Like I said, Ireland can be smug when the same doesn’t happen there. It’s incredibly racist in Ireland so let’s see who sells up when an area becomes ‘too black’ or ‘too Asian’.

Some posters seem to be conflating what the Catholic Church did to the Irish as what the Irish did to themselves.

And some posters seem to be conflating what the 'British' did to the Irish as what the British government did to the Irish...

Once again, there is always someone else to blame for Ireland's historical shortcomings.

Don't forget the Church didnt go out with nets to round pregnant girls up to send to the laundries. Their own families sent them there.

I suspect you will say 'It was how society was back then, they were indoctrinated to look upon unwed mothers as sinful, it wasn't their fault.'

Yet you would never accept me saying, 'It was how society was back then, the British were indoctrinated to look upon the Irish as inferior, it wasn't their fault'.

@mathanxiety

Please dont credit Ireland with the bravery that thousands of Irish individuals showed by joining the British forces.

So Ireland did take a side really, but stopped short of admitting it, which would mean joining the war effort and making an enemy of the Nazis.

As for Churchill 🤷‍♀️ I guess in the aftermath of the war, with millions dead and whole cities levelled, he didnt think to mention a relatively minor contribution from another country. Ireland certainly didnt 'defend' the UK, that is absurd.

@mathanxiety

I didnt say 'grateful' I said 'flattered'. Its almost getting paranoid on your part now.