What constitutes to someone being Irish?

[Cybercubed]

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

@TheSeasideSlide

So few otherwise educated adults seem to have a full grasp of the context of the Troubles, for instance

Very few people have a true idea of what their government does, full stop. It isnt personal - very few people in the UK understand the Iraq war either, or what has happened more lately in Syria.

It is frustrating but we cannot control what our government does. We vote in what seems like the best option, cross our fingers then watch them balls everything up. Just like everyone does.

I wish there was a way of holding our government to account over these things, but there just isnt, not from an average Joe perspective anyway.

The vast majority of people in the UK are just pootling along, not harming anyone, trying to stay afloat and have a decent life.

To say that because a king in the 16th century decided to steal some land in Ireland & settle British people on it, and each successive government has been 'managing' it disastrously ever since, does not make it every British person's responsibility to 'educate' themselves on it and feel guilty, is absurd.

I dont think there is anyone in the UK that wouldnt wave their wand if there was some kind of magic cure for everything. But there just isnt.

Britain colonised many parts of the world and that has shaped its relationships with other nations, including Ireland. It’s not ‘just history’ - it’s the living and breathing current world, where colonisation continues to have real and lasting consequences. I don’t know what there is to be so defensive about? It’s fact. Much more interesting to have a nuanced and reflective conversation about it than to defend Britain mindlessly for the frankly indefensible.

To be more accurate. Some wealthy British merchants and traders colonised parts of the world but this also included some Irish merchants and traders as well, of all religious denominations. What gets irritating is when all British people are blamed for this, or often just the English are blamed.

The vast majority of British people were working class, they had no say in colonialism and did not benefit from it but their descendants, tens of millions of people, are still blamed especially by Irish Americans. If you want to see how little is known about Irish or British history talk to a so called Irish American. This is where many many myths are coming from now online. The "Irish Slaves" myth is a good example or the exaggerations about Cromwell.

I also genuinely don’t think many sane Irish people ‘hate’ the British, English etc. I grew up in a very hardline Irish Republican household and there was never any hatred, just a particular political view that Ireland should be united and independent from the UK, and that the British government was a barrier to that happening. I’m not sure how different it was in very sectarian areas of the North of Ireland or, say, Glasgow....but that’s not for me to speak on as a Londoner.

Many British people think Ireland should be united. Just as many English think Scotland should leave the union. Many are republicans, in that they do not agree with a monarchy. There have also been times when the Brtish government wanted Irish independence and or a united Ireland

I also think it’s fair to say that the ignorance towards Irish history is frustrating and to be honest, astounding, in this country. So few otherwise educated adults seem to have a full grasp of the context of the Troubles, for instance, and it seems to be seen as something that happened ‘over there’ involving ‘the Irish’, rather than an occupation and war involving the British. I’ve genuinely lost count of how many times British people have asked me ‘so what WAS it all about, then?’.

We are taught Irish history, or used to be but it's more a case of people do not understand the religious bigotry, historical grievances and sectarianism, even many British people whose parents or Grandparents migrated from Ireland don't understand it. It doesn't matter here so much what religion someone is or where their Grandparents were from. If they were Church of England or Catholic or Protestant, or Presbyterian or Methodist or Wesleyan or Jewish or Baptist or what ever. No one cares about any of that

How many people in Ireland understand the British or English working class and their history and struggle? How many understand we have many English Catholics or Nonconformists in some areas of England. Going by some posts in debates online, not many

but it's more a case of people do not understand the religious bigotry, historical grievances and sectarianism, even many British people whose parents or Grandparents migrated from Ireland don't understand it. It doesn't matter here so much what religion someone is or where their Grandparents were from. If they were Church of England or Catholic or Protestant, or Presbyterian or Methodist or Wesleyan or Jewish or Baptist or what ever. No one cares about any of that

And that shows your complete lack of knowledge about Ireland. Yes, there is still religious bigotry in NI. However, nobody gives a toss what religion you are in Ireland.

How many understand we have many English Catholics or Nonconformists in some areas of England. Going by some posts in debates online, not many

Why on earth would you think Irish people don't realise there are people of different religions in the UK? Of course Irish people realise that. However, you still have am official religion with your monarch acting as head, so there is obviously a bias towards that religion within certain parts of your establishment. For example, a Catholic can't be monarch. I think it's only recently that you changed the rule allowing the monarch to be married to a Catholic.

However, you still have am official religion with your monarch acting as head,

As an English Catholic and a republican, I find this very offensive (or i would, if i was overly sensitive). I suggest you go and educate yourself on real English history.

Yes, there is still religious bigotry in NI

Yes that's what I meant, and parts of Scotland.

However, you still have am official religion with your monarch acting as head, so there is obviously a bias towards that religion within certain parts of your establishment

Not sure about that. The man in charge of our finances and the woman in charge of international and domestic security are both Hindu. You don't get much more establishment than that

Our monarch has had no real power for centuries. Which brings us back to Cromwell. He is an interesting character often brought up in Irish/British history debate...

As an English Catholic and a republican, I find this very offensive
You can't handle the truth

Omg I left this thread for a few days and wow - went from cute Irish identity stuff - was quite kind and nuanced...now this same mud slinging shit show as always. Can we not all just think of poor aul John Hume and get along

@JaneJeffer

I was being sarcastic 🙄😂

You were being wrong.

@JaneJeffer wrong about what?

The plural of anecdote isn’t data as a wise person once said. I’ve not come across blatant hate of the English in Ireland ever. General xenophobia including the English, sure. My grandfather was very suspicious of the English when in authority and convinced they’d treat Irish people with prejudice. A reasonable enough phobic attitude from a man who lived through the 1920s I’d say and it didn’t stop him from accepting English people on a one on one basis.

One of the great losses of a society forced into a “us and them” mindset is it creates an insularity in how the “us” has to be constructed. The idea of what is Irish enough needs to be expanded. Am I Irish enough? I went to Mass every week as a child, I saw Bosco on the telly and knew when the Angelus was on, I know what song they play at the end of a disco. But I didn’t go to school there so I never did my leaving cert. I accept a cup of tea directly and if someone says ah no I’ll say ok and not press them . I’m not chatty enough for Ireland and can be much too chatty for Sweden. 🤷‍♀️ By now I don’t care much, but I’ve noticed that I am in a position Sweden to claim my swedishness with a lot more confidence than I am in Ireland. The slight othering of me sticks, and I feel unsure about being able to claim irishness.

I’d agree that on the whole the Poles would hate the Russians more than the Germans, sure, but my point was that to say that they’ve left the past in the past is to fundamentally misunderstand current Polish politics which are very unpleasantly Poland first, Hail Mary and revising history to make Poland a country that was always homogeneous; completely constructing lies about a country that has had a very diverse past.

All history is linear absolutely but that means that Britain being under attack in WW2 can’t be separated from Britain committing atrocities what is historically speaking five minutes ago. A country cannot claim superiority and almost omnipotence and then victimhood in the same breath. Put the Irish neutrality in the past (after all Norway, Denmark and Finland do a reasonable job of letting Sweden off the hook) and accept that the times were difficult. Most countries would have preferred to stay out of the whole business but not all of them got a choice. It rings very false to tell other people to get over historical trauma without dealing with your own. This often happens on Mumsnet where British people get enormously defensive about discussing Britain’s colonial past. Get over it! It’s in the past! Anyway we suffered in WW2! Aye and if you imagine all those other places suffering little WW2:s for years and years - it creates trauma doesn’t it?

Even if the poorest people in the slums of London didn’t get a part of the wealth of the empire at the time it’s disingenuous to say that their descendants didn’t benefit from living in a country that had come out on top. This is the colonial debt of guilt. It doesn’t mean anyone has to self flagellate. It’s just a matter of seeing that it’s there - and I can say that as a swede, a country with its own inglorious past. It doesn’t mean not acknowledging the horrible suffering of generations of English/British at the hands of their own government.

I was born and brought up in Kent. My mother was borna nd brought up in Belfast and didn't come to England until her mid 20s but never had an Irish passort. My father's mother was Irish. Since Brexit I've had an Irish passort and discovered that I was automatically Irish through my mother. But I don't feel culturally Irish, I've never lived there. I am Irish legally but I would say I have an Irish passport but am culturally British.
Although I have actually lived in Spain for over 20 years and am waiting for Spanish nationality to come through, so...

Well said @banivani! I agree with a lot of what you’ve written here.

Even if the poorest people in the slums of London didn’t get a part of the wealth of the empire at the time it’s disingenuous to say that their descendants didn’t benefit from living in a country that had come out on top. This is the colonial debt of guilt

I'm curious about this. In what way did they benefit, and why should they have or feel a debt of colonial guilt?

There is no such thing as nationality anyway.
If you think about it logically, how does being born on one patch of land mean that you are from there?

Most people move around. Most people's families are not from just one country

I was born in Ireland, and I have so far worked in Spain, Indonesia and the USA. I lived in Spain for many years. I am just back in Ireland this year

@TheSeasideSlide many countries colonised other countries. What are your feelings on Spain and Portugal for example, who colonised many countries around the world.
What about Holland - who colonised many countries around the world.

My friends and I were just talking about this last week in Ireland. I lived abroad for many years and I always went to international meetups, so i am very used to talking to different people. I moved back to Ireland this year, and I went to meetups in my town. There was a Pakistani man there, and he said to me " before I came to ireland I was told that the Irish people were really friendly and nice, but when i came here, the Irish people were really cold and rude to me". Another Polish woman in the group said to me that Irish women had been really nasty to her while she was here.
It got me and my Irish friends talking. One of my friends said that growing up in Ireland he was taught to hate people from the next village, that people are taught to hate any outsider, he said "if people are taught to not accept people from the next village, can you imagine how they would treat a foreigner here"

There is just a very clannish behaviour in ireland, and no acceptance of anyone that is not"exactly like us".

I really think this needs to change. Ireland really needs to change and move forward in this area.

Colonialism established an inequality in economic power etc. that benefitted the former colonising powers. I’d say it’s fairly uncontroversial to say that if your country can benefit from economic and (relative) political stability it will benefit the inhabitants as well. I mean on the whole the people of France have had more/better opportunities than the people of Haiti. This doesn’t mean that the French individuals need to roll around wracked with guilt. Just notice the pattern. I certainly can see it in Sweden’s history. Sweden loves to put out the narrative about a poor nation pulling itself up by its bootstraps through hard work and clever inventions and not talk much about using other countries to get there.

@sarahpaula, your friend was taught to hate people from the next village? Really? If that is true, surely you can see that it is an unusual approach to life?

And you were taught to hate all English people?

I have not experienced anything like you describe but I am aware enough to know that of course there are racist and xenophobic people in Ireland, as there are in every country, but your anecdotes don't mean that everybody is like that.

@Sarahpaula

My friends and I were just talking about this last week in Ireland. I lived abroad for many years and I always went to international meetups, so i am very used to talking to different people. I moved back to Ireland this year, and I went to meetups in my town. There was a Pakistani man there, and he said to me " before I came to ireland I was told that the Irish people were really friendly and nice, but when i came here, the Irish people were really cold and rude to me". Another Polish woman in the group said to me that Irish women had been really nasty to her while she was here. It got me and my Irish friends talking. One of my friends said that growing up in Ireland he was taught to hate people from the next village, that people are taught to hate any outsider, he said "if people are taught to not accept people from the next village, can you imagine how they would treat a foreigner here"

There is just a very clannish behaviour in ireland, and no acceptance of anyone that is not"exactly like us".

I really think this needs to change. Ireland really needs to change and move forward in this area.

Absolutely true - Ireland is welcoming if you arrive with a return ticket. If not, the Ireland experienced is positively hostile.

This is unsurprising:

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/ireland-among-worst-eu-states-for-racial-violence-based-on-skin-colour-1.3889478%3fmode=amp

Ireland is welcoming if you arrive with a return ticket. If not, the Ireland experienced is positively hostile.
Wow I'm amazed the parents of my DC's classmates from all corners of the world decided to stay and raise their families here in the face of such hostility. Such bravery.

I'm born and bred in N Ireland and even with all our problems, past and present, I have never ever heard of people being raised to hate those in the next village.

There is often a lot of joking around about people being blow-ins if they weren't raised in a town or village but it's not serious. I'm a blow in to my village because I've only been here for 20 years. My children aren't, because they've never lived anywhere else. But it's good natured, it doesn't actually mean that my neighbours shun me because I'm not a local. I don't nip to the Spar and find it's like the local shop in Roston Vasey.

@JaneJeffer

Ireland is welcoming if you arrive with a return ticket. If not, the Ireland experienced is positively hostile. Wow I'm amazed the parents of my DC's classmates from all corners of the world decided to stay and raise their families here in the face of such hostility. Such bravery.

I attended a local theatre production celebrating diversity in the counties schools. They lined the children up by skin colour on the stage. Blond blue eyes one end, darkest skinned black child the other end. And later sang “we are the world” with each white child standing by a non white child, hand on shoulder. So yes, you could say the parents are brave. Many have no choice. Those that do are stupid to raise their children there. Those without choice I just feel sorry for. No doubt they can see the harm being done even if the locals can’t.

@MMN123 you do experience some strange things.