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What constitutes to someone being Irish?

999 replies

Cybercubed · 18/08/2020 23:58

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

OP posts:
rayoflightboy · 23/08/2020 08:11

@Wolfgirrl
God I'm so jealous, I really want people to see me as a well behaved sports fan...

Seriously,you have the most disliked fans in the world.
And your holidaymakers are just as bad.Thats really nothing to be proud of.

MMN123 · 23/08/2020 08:13

@Howallergic

We are special. Biggest party in the world? St. Patrick's Day. Country most people are proud to claim heritage from? Ireland. Most well received people globally? Irish Best behaved sports fans internationally? Irish

Very very proud to be Irish. So put that in yer pipe and smoke it Wolf.

But you don’t wonder why?!
Wolfgirrl · 23/08/2020 08:13

@rayoflightboy

Ireland has a very poor track record of women's rights, which is nothing to be proud of 🤷‍♀️

Wolfgirrl · 23/08/2020 08:33

Very very proud to be Irish. So put that in yer pipe and smoke it Wolf.

Isnt there a phrase like 'he doth protest too much'?

CayrolBaaaskin · 23/08/2020 09:15

I’m not English but offended on their behalf by comments like “you have the most disliked fans in the world.“. Racist much

MarieVanGoethem · 23/08/2020 09:50

Sorry to carry on the detailing of your thread CyberCubed but having seen the myth that The Irish Were Slaves Too trotted out earlier in thread I wanted to share this helpful drawing together of all of Liam Hogan’s extensive work debunking it. Conflating indentured servitude with the transatlantic slave trade is... grim.

(As an aside, I think London Irish is maybe less of A Thing now than it was when some of the PPs & I were growing up because while plenty of people still make Irish “jokes” Hmm children won’t be in the situation my Reception Class once were when, stuck inside Charing X during an IRA bomb scare, 2 parent helpers were suddenly yanked away by the police “for a chat” because they’d Irish accents. You can get Tayto in Tesco - only cheese & onion, admittedly, no use to me - & people don’t move away on hearing the accent etc. Not being so othered means less need to be so... fierce? Not that my parents were, but living where I do & being part of the diaspora, discovered when I went to secondary school with English-English girls that we were culturally much more Irish. Which may be why, though I tick the British box on forms, the only thing that could turn me from veganism is jam mallows - the temptation is real I tell you...)

TheSeasideSlide · 23/08/2020 09:54

You seem to really, really dislike Irish people @Wolfgirrl

Wolfgirrl · 23/08/2020 10:07

@TheSeasideSlide

Not at all. I'm of Irish heritage myself, have many Irish friends, chose Ireland for a girls weekend away a couple of years ago and had a lovely time. It's a gorgeous country with a very unique landscape & culture.

However, I do get very fed up with Irish people bringing up grievances against England from hundreds of years ago, particularly when they use the word 'you', and say we should all be 'educated on Irish history' etc, presumably to make us feel guilty or responsible when we are neither.

It really does feel like someof the Irish believe their suffering to be superior or more worthy of attention than the suffering of any other country. They can't seem to let it go & are determined to blame every English person at any opportunity.

All I (and others like Flax) have tried to do is put the shoe on the other foot & show them what it is like to have your country's historical failings dragged up time and time again. Needless to say, they took extreme exception to this and a row ensued.

Wolfgirrl · 23/08/2020 10:10

@CayrolBaaaskin

Well, it is somewhat true, so I dont mind it being mentioned. But yes when England is slagged off we are expected to nod along solemnly and offer our apologies. Yet when it is Ireland, it is completely unacceptable and you get piled on! Lol

banivani · 23/08/2020 10:16

@Cybercubed In Terry Eagleton’s book The Truth About The Irish there’s a bit where he describes Ireland as an essentially clannish society. In a society based on clans it’s very important where people are from and what people they belong too, and Ireland this idea still has influence and matters. This was a bit of an aha moment for me since I have Irish parentage on one side but grew up abroad. I got the “welcome home” when we visited but at the same time felt endlessly that I didn’t fit it and was made to feel slightly wrong. As an adult I don’t care as much and have forgiven. Abroad I describe myself as Swedish but since I have a name that belies it I often directly have to get in to my other heritages. In Sweden I often have cause to say that I’m not completely Swedish enough (to eat surströmming or not invite cousins to my wedding or whatever).

A pp posted an article about a Ugandan (I think?) priest who was born in Ireland but hasn’t set foot there since yet thinks of himself as Irish. That’s odd to me since he’ll have basically nothing culturally in common with anyone from Ireland. I don’t go straight for describing myself as Irish and I’d say I know a lot more about it than he does. ;) I think the Irish could do well to open up the concept of who is Irish a bit more, and hopefully that’s where we’re headed. But I think historically the citizenship and the ethnicity have been very interlinked. Also I think all of us English speakers tend to class people by accent, don’t we? The accent will say what “people” we belong to. It seems very ingrained.

For the record the Polish haven’t gotten over shit. I have family from there so I can tell you that the partition of 1795 is still a point of soreness. Do not lean on the Polish as people who are “over the war” - absolutely not. The Swedish wars and accompanying atrocities in the 17th century are known as “the deluge” (potop) and I would argue influence Poland to this day. In the late 19th century a polish author wrote an epic novel about the period and it has been filmed several times since then. The Polish LOVE a good historical moan.

It is always unwise to tell people to get over a trauma. At some point, sure, the trauma has to be put in the past, but this is difficult if you don’t have the trauma recognised by others, ideally including the perpetrators of it with analogous/admission of guilt/reparations.

The thing with the Irish famine is that there is a line from famine to increased fight for independence to Easter rising to Black and Tans to Partiton to Troubles to now. It is a bit meaningless to say get over it when all the issues become tangled up. Having also family and friends in England (sic) I can say that there are apparently many brits who do not get over the atrocities committed by their own government towards its people. See Margaret Thatcher, subsections “milk for school children” and “mines”.

It is worth thinking about whether a nation or government or group of people of whatever uses historical trauma to cover up ongoing problems of their own making. Keeping historical trauma alive that way can be a useful tool. Definitely oh so definitely true in Poland. I suspect a lot of Irish people could agree that focussing on Cromwell’s barbaric Ireland could mean that current human rights issues in Ireland could be ignored.

For what it’s worth, if the British government did nothing more wrong than be passive regarding the famine then that crime is perfectly analogous with Ireland’s perceived crime of passivity in WW2, don’t you think? But as a Catholic I’d like to remind us of sins of omission. Failing to so something can also be a sin. ;)

isabellerossignol · 23/08/2020 10:24

I was going to say the same about the Polish. They might, at a push, be 'over' the German occupation but that's because they suffered even more under the Russians and the Germans didn't look so bad in comparison. (Obviously with the disclaimer that individual experiences differed, and that's not a universal view).

Wolfgirrl · 23/08/2020 10:29

@banivani very interesting post, thank you.

But that is how all history works, for every country. It is linear, all events lead to the next, and the next, until we are where we are today. Ireland is not unique in this regard.

TOFO1965 · 23/08/2020 10:32

I was born here to Irish parents. Most of my family are in Ireland and I spent a lot of time there as a child. I consider myself Irish.

Muser314 · 23/08/2020 10:37

@banivani interesting post! There was an article in the Irish Times a while ago from a number of English people saying you can be anything in Ireland today, except English! And it was a funny article mostly although it also acknowledged that they had all been on the receiving end of stupid comments. They were all very integrated in to Irish society having good jobs, being married to Irish people, having children who ''looked Irish'' and went to gaelscoileanna! But they were articulating something that is true, even if it's said jokily, you can be anything in Ireland except English. When I got back from the UK with a hybrid accent I had to lose it quickly and try and get my old accent back.

Sarahpaula · 23/08/2020 10:40

@howallergic you have said to me various times, "I doubt your Irish" and "you claim your Irish, I'm willing to bet you're NI".

Actually I am from Rochfortbridge - a village in Co. Westmeath, Republic of Ireland, know it? I am sitting here in my house in Rochfortbridge right now.

I also had it drummed into me as a child "hate all the English, the English are the devil". However, as I grew up and worked in the career that I worked in, I saw that this was a terrible and ridiculous attitude to have. How and why should I hate all English people? I studied Public Health in college in Sligo, and I became very interested in working in peace projects in Northern Ireland.
The first job that I took after college - was working in a charity that promoted peace between young people in Northern Ireland. I worked in that job for three years. The first thing that some of the catholic people there said to me was "why didn't you guys down there help us when we were going through such terrible things". That was a shock to me! Because I didn't know that attitude was there at all. But it was. They said to me things that I had to listen to: that the republic of Ireland sold them out to the British, that the republic of Ireland could have sent up help, an army, reinforcements, anything during the troubles, and we didn't. That we sat back and let them suffer. I was able to see that we have all hurt each other in the past. And it is an absolute waste of energy to hate anyone.

My cousin married a Polish man, and I have also visited Poland every year for the last five years, my cousin lives near the Auschwitz camp, and people talk to me about Poland and Germany's history every time I go over. There is no hate. There is an acceptance of the things that happened long ago, and how everyone moved forward together. They don't waste energy hating everyone in Germany. That is why I wish Ireland would begin to move forward.

AgileLass · 23/08/2020 10:56

Sarahandpaula the Irish govt set up refugee camps in 1969 to look after people from NI fleeing across the border.

The Troubles, as I’m sure you’re aware, was an enormous aspect of Irish govt policy from the late 60s on, hence the Dublin govt’s involvement in Sunningdale, the behind the scenes efforts to resolve the hunger strikes, the AIA, the Downing Street Declaration and finally the peace process leading to the GFA.

It’s simply not accurate to state that the Republic of Ireland “did nothing”, even if that’s what some people in NI think.

Sarahpaula · 23/08/2020 10:56

@banivani I have been in Poland many times, and I have never ever seen such hate directed towards the Germans, as I see in Ireland towards English people.
I was at a hiking meetup in Ireland last week. A man who had just moved to Ireland, told me that he was shocked at the level of hatred towards the English here, he said that he paid for a boat trip, and the whole way across the river and back, all that the man in the boat talked about was how much he hated the English, wanted to kill all the bastards etc. Is that level of hate really normal?

Flaxmeadow · 23/08/2020 10:59

I suspect a lot of Irish people could agree that focussing on Cromwell’s barbaric Ireland could mean that current human rights issues in Ireland could be ignored

Cromwell is often exaggerated

Sarahpaula · 23/08/2020 11:00

@banivani and it is not about saying to Irish people that they should get over a trauma from the past,

it is saying to Irish people, that - blaming and hating current English people for it, is wrong, and is actually causing problems between the two islands, when we could be helping each other.

How does being born in England, make you responsible for everything that people in England did in the past? What about people who are born in England to Irish parents? Are they responsible too? Are babies responsible? Children? Do you have to be from an area to be more responsible?

I just cannot understand Irish people blaming the current people in England, who had nothing to do with anything. It is like blaming all Muslims for some Muslim attacks. It is a strange and dangerous way to think

MMN123 · 23/08/2020 11:03

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TheSeasideSlide · 23/08/2020 11:05

Britain colonised many parts of the world and that has shaped its relationships with other nations, including Ireland. It’s not ‘just history’ - it’s the living and breathing current world, where colonisation continues to have real and lasting consequences. I don’t know what there is to be so defensive about? It’s fact. Much more interesting to have a nuanced and reflective conversation about it than to defend Britain mindlessly for the frankly indefensible.

I also genuinely don’t think many sane Irish people ‘hate’ the British, English etc. I grew up in a very hardline Irish Republican household and there was never any hatred, just a particular political view that Ireland should be united and independent from the UK, and that the British government was a barrier to that happening. I’m not sure how different it was in very sectarian areas of the North of Ireland or, say, Glasgow....but that’s not for me to speak on as a Londoner.

I also think it’s fair to say that the ignorance towards Irish history is frustrating and to be honest, astounding, in this country. So few otherwise educated adults seem to have a full grasp of the context of the Troubles, for instance, and it seems to be seen as something that happened ‘over there’ involving ‘the Irish’, rather than an occupation and war involving the British. I’ve genuinely lost count of how many times British people have asked me ‘so what WAS it all about, then?’.

MMN123 · 23/08/2020 11:06

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MMN123 · 23/08/2020 11:10

You’ll notice that while I’m Irish, it’s not something I embrace. I am most certainly not proud to be Irish!

Shinygoldbauble · 23/08/2020 11:10

This thread is turning from an somewhat interesting discussion into blatant anti-Irishness.

Wolfgirrl · 23/08/2020 11:25

@Shinygoldbauble

Can you please quote the part which is blatantly anti Irish?