What constitutes to someone being Irish?

[Cybercubed]

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

@Flaxmeadow you know the rules, never suggest English people are anything other than posh, privileged xenophobics with a superiority complex that have lived sumptuously throughout history courtesy of the Irish...

Wolfgirrl
It does come across like that sometimes.

A problem I've found in this discussion is that there is no consideration for what the English working class went through, a huge percent of the population

Op next time you want advice perhaps leave the word Irish out of your title, it seems to bring out the nutters the hibernophobia that's rampant on mumsnet.

The English working class were not living in an occupied country.

The English working class were not living in an occupied country.

That's debatable but even so they might as well have been. They had no representation and were subject to the same laws, including penal laws

But you keep saying the Irish were murdered, exploited, treated badly etc . In what way was this different to the English labouring class. You make the claim but can't discuss the comparisons. Your claims needs context

I would be embarrassed to be so ignorant of my own history. But just to humour you, there are the plantations, penal laws, the famine, black and tans, bloody Sunday etc etc. Just a few highlights.

In what way was this different to the English labouring class.

Again, you seem to be saying that appalling treatment of their own people justifies barbarism against another.

@Flaxmeadow Who do you want to pay due consideration to the plight of the English working class? And what on earth does it have to do with a thread about Irishness?

@Flaxmeadow

And remember the second rule! English people cannot be working class! cough

You're right of course. The poverty in London and throughout the UK was appalling in Victorian times. A huge amount of the wealth was had by a tiny number of people. Women and most men could not vote. Infant mortality was sky high. People lived in slums. A lot of women resorted to prostitution. Babies were born with fetal alcohol syndrome as the women drank gin in pregnancy as it was cleaner than the water, which contained cholera (look up Gin Lane). There was a Hunger in the 1840s where thousands starved to death as the government made it illegal to give poor people aid. We had unmarried mother laundries & appalling orphanages same as in Ireland for a very long time.

But we can't acknowledge that, we must instead focus on how privileged we have been throughout history 🙄

A problem I've found in this discussion is that there is no consideration for what the English working class went through, a huge percent of the population

Why on earth would the English working class be a consideration in a discussion about Ireland? We might as well consider the native Americans or the aborigines in Australia or the peasants in central Europe or whatever.

Why do the British posters keep referring to England all the time?

@JaneJeffer

The English working class were not living in an occupied country.

What difference would it have made? Most of the English couldnt vote! You think they should've been happier they were oppressed by their own people rather than others?

You're getting fairly off topic @Wolfgirrl

Who do you want to pay due consideration to the plight of the English working class?

The posters accusing the English

And what on earth does it have to do with a thread about Irishness

The thread is by someone who is English asking about her Irish ancestry and how it relates to now

We keep referring to England as you constantly hold us (even if it is a historical 'us') accountable for the actions of a government that oppressed it's own people as well. And to add further insult, you insist we focus on your history as some kind of weird guilt trip, when our own wasn't much better.

So basically the English have been oppressed by their own government, and are blamed by other people their government oppressed! Do you not see the wrong in that?

So you think the English were oppressed by the British government but the Irish weren't?

We keep referring to England as you constantly hold us (even if it is a historical 'us') accountable for the actions of a government that oppressed it's own people as well. And to add further insult, you insist we focus on your history as some kind of weird guilt trip, when our own wasn't much better.
Where?

The posters accusing the English

Why? What the British did in their own country has nothing to do with us.

The thread is by someone who is English asking about her Irish ancestry and how it relates to now

And?

Why on earth would the English working class be a consideration in a discussion about Ireland?

See my last post

We might as well consider the native Americans or the aborigines in Australia or the peasants in central Europe or whatever.

Huh?

No this discussion, rightly or wrongly, has become about Ireland and England/Britain. IIRC the history part of it seems to have started when a poster said something like "you [meaning the English/British] murdered the Irish in the famine" . When the poster was asked who was the "you", she replied somethingnalong theblibes of "your ancestors" and colonialism blah blah

My point is, most English people were working class and had no say in colonialism and did not benefit from it

I know it's gone off topic but it is a current theme in many discussions ATM

I would be embarrassed to be so ignorant of my own history.

I think I've had 2 replies from you, to 2 of my short posts. I've only just started a discussion with you in the last 15 minutes but thanks for the judgment

But just to humour you, there are the plantations,

The English went through this. It was called Enclosure or Acts of Inclosure

penal laws,

The English were also subject to penal laws, especially English Catholics and Nonconformists. Infact in some parts of urban England there were more (English) Catholics and Nonconformists than CofE (1851 parish records)

the famine,
The English had famine in 1795/6 and 1801

black and tans, bloody Sunday etc etc

Peterloo, 1842 general strike, terrorist bombings (starting in the late 1800s) ect ect

Just a few highlights

"Humour" me some more

Again, the treatment of your own people is irrelevant to us when discussing how the Irish were treated by the british.

See my last post

I did. You said The thread is by someone who is English asking about her Irish ancestry and how it relates to now

She was asking about Irishness. A completely different discussion.

No this discussion, rightly or wrongly, has become about Ireland and England/Britain.

The discussion moved on to historical mistreatment of the Irish by the British. You keep trying to sidetrack that on to a discussion on how british people were also treated appallingly by their ruling class. That is totally irrelevant to how the Irish were treated.

When the poster was asked who was the "you", she replied somethingnalong theblibes of "your ancestors" and colonialism blah blah

Really? Perhaps you could quote that post as I don't recall seeing it, although I may have missed it.

Perhaps you're confusing it with the nonsense ascribed to Irish posters by an english poster.

sigh No @JaneJeffer both were oppressed by the English government.

However the Irish wont acknowledge this, and even goes as far as to blame the English as well. It is bizarre.

.. oh and the point made about "invasion" and "invaded country"

When was this invasion if Ireland, how far back do you want to go? Was it 1171, King Henry II, backed by the Pope and invited by an Irish king. That invasion, by the Norman's? Who were the French speaking descendants of a French/Norse elite. They invaded us in 1066 when they slaughtered half of the North of England 1069. While the Scots hung around like vultures for the pickings, many of those Scots descended from Irish themselves of course

Where?

In the posts on this thread where you keep insisting we 'learn' about our history and 'acknowledge the past' like it was our fault!