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What constitutes to someone being Irish?

999 replies

Cybercubed · 18/08/2020 23:58

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

OP posts:
raskolnikova · 22/08/2020 09:19

@SonEtLumiere Spain doesn't recognise dual nationality with the UK.

MMN123 · 22/08/2020 09:23

I’m also Irish. But the mental gymnastics that goes on always astounded me. Guess it makes people feel better about themselves. I’ve never really understood it. Hatred of the British overrides everything. The benefits of the Anglo Irish relationship are minimised. Weird.

raskolnikova · 22/08/2020 09:27

@SonEtLumiere Ah no sorry I've just checked and might be wrong, the pp could be both a Spanish/UK citizen if they declared it at the right time.

Wolfgirrl · 22/08/2020 09:27

@mathanxiety

I never understand posts like that. 'Go and read some books' isnt a point. Especially when you cant say which ones or what they are about.

KingFredsTache · 22/08/2020 09:30

The Irish also don’t like to confront the level of misogyny endemic in the culture.

What fucking bollocks. How do you think abortion was made legal in Ireland in the first place? Do you ever actually speak to any Irish people, because I do, lots of them. Yes some of them are still misogynist twats, just like some Brits, but lots of them voted to legalise abortion, they are horrified about what went on in the laundries and don't like the misogyny of the Catholic Church.

Wolfgirrl · 22/08/2020 09:32

@KingFredsTache

So if an Irish person says they're horrified by their history, then we must accept the country has changed for the better and not hold it against them.

Do you see the hypocrisy there..?

HorseIsland · 22/08/2020 09:33

@mathanxiety is entirely correct to suggest that not a few people on this thread need to do a lot more reading and a lot less ill-informed speculating.

@MMN123, the 'mental gymnastics' that never fail to astonish me are less Irish self-conceptions than British misinformation, projection and ignorance of a neighbouring country's history and culture.

KingFredsTache · 22/08/2020 09:38

So if an Irish person says they're horrified by their history, then we must accept the country has changed for the better and not hold it against them.

Do you see the hypocrisy there..?

What hypocrisy - which Brits on this thread have said they are 'horrified by their history' - not you that's for sure!

Wolfgirrl · 22/08/2020 09:39

@KingFredsTache

I have said the British government has treated Ireland badly! Over and over again.

What admissions have been made by the Irish posters?

SurreyHillsGirl · 22/08/2020 09:39

@Bluesheep8
I was born in this country. One of my parents was born and brought up in ROI. I consider myself half Irish

Same for me. I look Irish as well, blue eyes + dark hair so despite the lack of accent, I get asked if I'm Irish a fair bit.

Wolfgirrl · 22/08/2020 09:40

@HorseIsland

You cant flying accusations around by alluding to things but not being explicit. Which crucial part of your culture have we overlooked that would explain this all away?

Do the Irish read up on English culture?

HorseIsland · 22/08/2020 09:52

Do the Irish read up on English culture?

A question that shows your failure to grasp key realities about the imbalance of knowledge.

I lived in England for more than two decades teaching Irish and English literature at RG universities. My knowledge of both the culture and history of these islands and the frightening ignorance of general knowledge about Ireland among many English people is based on years of study and lived experience.

KingFredsTache · 22/08/2020 09:54

And Wolfgirrl good to see you still aren't looking past the 'but the Brits saved the world' end of your nose to think about the wider implications of officially joining the war for Ireland.

You cannot compare Ireland and Britain at the time. As you have been told multiple times, Ireland was a tiny island whose own civil war had only finished a few years before. They had barely an army, families and lives had already been shattered by British rule, their 'culture and language' that you think they should have 'joined with the Brits' to preserve had already been damaged. If they had joined with Britain their country would have been further decimated, and do you think they could have counted on Britain to help them, given the past? Or did they believe that perhaps, once again, Britain would leave them in the shit? Of course they were going to try and avoid getting involved.

Britain on the other hand was a superpower with plenty of experience of jumping right into the midst of everything. And even they did everything they could to avoid getting involved in another war.

Ireland wasn't the only country to be neutral in WW2, but I don't see you going on about any of those countries (including USA!!!) And as others have said, Ireland did provide some intelligence for the Allies, so while they didn't officially join, neither did they completely refuse to help them.

Are you going to acknowledge any of the above?

Eyewhisker · 22/08/2020 09:54

Wolfgirl - you are being really weird and fitting the stereotype of being absolutely obsessed with WWII.

Germany invaded Poland as they wanted to copy the British Empire. Hitler saw the Germans, like Britain, as a superior race and felt entitled to an Empire like Britain. He saw that Britain had invaded other countries, in some cases (Australia, Africa, parts of America) demonised the natives as inferior and killed many of them and profited from it. He saw the British Empire as an inspiration and wanted the same for Germany. Yes, he was totally evil, but he did not arise in a vacuum.

The difference is that Germans totally atone for WWII and never engage in Whataboutery. No German will ever say ‘the Holocaust was bad but what about the Slave Trade’ or God forbid the Vikings. They acknowledge the damage that was done with no buts, nothing.

Wolfgirrl · 22/08/2020 09:55

@HorseIsland

So why dont you enlighten me? You have a chance to educate someone now, why dont you?

Just alluding to ignorance without being explicit is silly.

KingFredsTache · 22/08/2020 09:58

Do the Irish read up on English culture?

Which particular English culture are you talking about?

SqidgeBum · 22/08/2020 09:58

@Wolfgirrl the irish actually learn a huge amount about english culture and history in school. I came out of school in ireland with equal knowledge to my english husband who did history and international politics degree. However, he had zero knowledge of ireland. It was shocking to be honest. He had done his whole degree withiutnlearning about the troubles in the north, the good friday agreement, the IRA, the 1916 rising, blody sunday in croke park, anything. He couldn't believe how little he knew. As a teacher now in an english school I find kids spend most of their time learning about england and workd wars, but very little about the rest of the world. When I teach Belfast Confetti by Ciaran Carson most of my 15 year old students dont know NI is part of the UK. I have to do a history lesson before teaching the actual poem.

Wolfgirrl · 22/08/2020 09:59

@KingFredsTache

No matter what Irelands circumstances, had the Allies not taken on the Nazis, at huge personal cost (much greater than anything ever experienced in Ireland), Ireland would have been invaded by the Nazis and suffered an appalling fate. If another country had stepped in and stopped Britain being invaded, and suffered enormously in the process, I would be grateful, regardless of motives.

But some of the Irish are so proud they would find any excuse going rather than just say, 'Yes, the British did a really good thing there, and helped to save our bacon.'

Elasticate · 22/08/2020 09:59

@Wolfgirrl You lost me when you said that Irish people should be grateful that they "were granted residency" in Britain when escaping the famine.

Ever heard of the Act of Union?

Wolfgirrl · 22/08/2020 10:01

@Eyewhisker

If you are now trying to squirm out of acknowledging Britain's bravery in WW2 by saying they essentially laid the foundations for the rise of Nazism, that is really really really low. And I will not be responding to you again. Breathtakingly offensive to the hundreds of thousands of British who died.

KingFredsTache · 22/08/2020 10:02

No matter what Irelands circumstances, had the Allies not taken on the Nazis, at huge personal cost (much greater than anything ever experienced in Ireland), Ireland would have been invaded by the Nazis and suffered an appalling fate. If another country had stepped in and stopped Britain being invaded, and suffered enormously in the process, I would be grateful, regardless of motives.

But Britain weren't fighting to protect Ireland? They didn't 'step in to stop Ireland being invaded'?

mathanxiety · 22/08/2020 10:05

@Wolfgirrl
If you cracked open a book or two you would find that the author of the telegram you quoted was Secretary of the Department of External Affairs, not 'the minister for external affairs'. The Minister for External Affairs from 1932 to 1948 was Eamon deValera, who was also Taoiseach for that entire period.

From
www.difp.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=3379
"Memorandum by the Department of External Affairs on the German request to provide extra staff for the German Legation in Dublin"
"(Copy No. 2) (Secret)"
At 5 p.m. on 19th December, the German Minister asked to see Mr. Walshe urgently. He arrived a quarter of an hour later and told Mr. Walshe that he had a wire from Berlin saying that three additional officials had been appointed to the staff of the German Legation in Dublin and they would arrive at the Limerick airport (sic) by a Luft Hansa civil plane at daybreak, on 21st December. Mr. Hempel handed in an official Note1 making a formal request for permission for the new officials and the crew of the aircraft to enter Éire and for particulars of the call sign and wavelength of the Shannon wireless station, which Herr Hempel wished to wire to Berlin at once. Copy of this Note, together with a list of the names of the new officials, is attached hereto.

2. Mr. Walshe told Herr Hempel that the proposed increase in the staff of the Legation would occasion us political embarrassment at the present time, and he felt sure that the proposal was the work of some official in Berlin who did not possess that keen appreciation of the situation here which Herr Woermann and the other senior officials of the German Foreign Office had always shown. He would wire Mr. Warnock at once and instruct him to tell the Foreign Office that the proposed arrangement was politically impossible from our point of view.2 In the meantime, he was going to see the Taoiseach and he would mention the matter to him at once.

3. After Mr. Walshe's departure, Herr Hempel remained with Mr. Boland, and the Secretary of the German Legation, Herr Thomsen, arrived and handed Herr Hempel the text of the Berlin telegram which apparently had not been fully decoded when Herr Hempel left the Legation. On reading the text, Herr Hempel asked with great insistence that we should not wire Mr. Warnock, that we should deal with the matter through him, and that, pending consideration of the general question, the airport should be cleared 'in order to save time' and we should let him have at once the call sign and wavelength of the airport wireless station.

4. On Mr. Walshe's return from the Taoiseach about 7.30 p.m., a wire was sent to Mr. Warnock telling him to see the Under Secretary of State and tell him that the proposed arrangement was impossible from our point of view, that it might be reviewed at a later time, but that, for the moment, it was out of the question.3

5. On the morning of the 20th December, Herr Hempel called again on Mr. Walshe. He argued with considerable emphasis that the German Government had the technical right to increase the staff of its Legation here if it wished to do so, and that for us to refuse to allow them to exercise that right would be a serious matter. He referred at one point to the possibility of a breach of diplomatic relations.

Mr. Walshe told Herr Hempel that we did not deny the technical right, our attitude was, not that the right did not exist, but that its exercise in present circumstances would occasion us serious political embarrassment. We were entitled to expect that the German Government would have regard to our interests in the matter, and therefore we had told Mr. Warnock to ask the Foreign Office in Berlin to withdraw the request.

Herr Hempel promised to wire Berlin and put the considerations advanced by Mr. Walshe before his Government, but he urged again that, pending some decision, the airport at Rynanna4 should be cleared and he should be given the call sign and wavelength of the Shannon station.

6. On the same day, Mr. Walshe saw the Minister for Coordination and the Minister for Defence and informed them of the development. He had already mentioned the matter to Mr. Aiken on the previous evening.

7. Nothing further was heard of the matter until the morning of the 26th December, when Herr Hempel came to see Mr. Walshe and told him that he had received a wire from Berlin the previous evening to the effect that, as the German request represented no more than the exercise of a right which they undoubtedly possessed, there was no room for discussion.

Mr. Walshe re-emphasised the considerations which made the request impossible and unreasonable from our point of view. He pointed out that it would furnish propaganda against Irish neutrality, which Germany had professed herself so anxious to see maintained, with a strong weapon and would aggravate the delicate situation created by the American and British Press campaign about our ports. The matter was put to us on the basis of the German Government's right to increase the staff of its Legation if it wished to do, but even Herr Hempel himself would not pretend that the present staff of the Legation was inadequate. Germany had thus no apparent interest in the matter commensurate with the political embarrassment which the proposed arrangement would create for us, and, in the circumstances, we could only regard the German persistence in the request as most unreasonable. He hoped it would not be necessary for us to return a positive refusal, and he would therefore ask Herr Hempel himself to urge his Government again to withdraw the proposal. If he was not prepared to do this, it was perhaps better that he should see the Taoiseach.

Herr Hempel said that he hesitated to ask for an interview with the Taoiseach about what was really a routine administrative matter, and for him to do so would perhaps give the request an aspect of political importance which it had not got. However, he would consider the matter.

8. During this interview, Herr Hempel made it quite clear again that, in fact, the request was being treated by his Government as a matter of very considerable importance. He referred again to the possibility of 'serious consequences' following if the request were refused, but, when Mr. Walshe told him that for Germany to break off relations with us over what Herr Hempel himself had characterised as a routine administrative matter would expose the German Government to ridicule throughout the world, Herr Hempel at once said he had no instructions to say that the refusal of the request would mean the breaking-off of relations. In fact, when he referred to the possibility of 'serious consequences' following a refusal of the request, he was voicing merely a personal impression. He had no instructions whatever on the point.

9. Throughout the interview Herr Hempel seemed to be at some pains to remove any unfavourable impression created by the insistent and somewhat menacing tone in which he had put forward the matter at earlier interviews.

10. On the morning of the 27th December, Herr Hempel called again on Mr. Walshe and said he would like to see the Taoiseach. Much of the ground covered at earlier interviews was traversed, and once again Herr Hempel seemed in a calmer and more resigned frame of mind.

11. Herr Hempel saw the Taoiseach on 28th December. The Taoiseach told him he would like the request withdrawn, but he indicated that, if the request were persisted in, it would be refused.

12. In the course of an informal conversation on 29th December, Herr Hempel told Mr. Boland that he had reported these conversations to Berlin; he was very worried as to what the reactions would be, but he thought it possible that, as an alternative, the German Government might instruct him to visit Berlin. He hoped there would be no difficulty if he were so instructed. He would leave his wife and children here.

KingFredsTache · 22/08/2020 10:06

If you are now trying to squirm out of acknowledging Britain's bravery in WW2 by saying they essentially laid the foundations for the rise of Nazism, that is really really really low. And I will not be responding to you again. Breathtakingly offensive to the hundreds of thousands of British who died.

But there is truth in it though isn't there? How did 'The British Empire' come to be? Take us through it. Did Britain go to different countries and ask nicely if they could colonise them?

OchonAgusOchonO · 22/08/2020 10:10

@ Wolfgirrl - I could say the same about France and England couldnt I? We have a long and bloody history. But the two countries managed to work together in WW2 just fine. Are you saying they should've refused and just let the Nazis push ahead with world domination, because their grudge was far more important? 🙄

A totally different situation. France and England had not had any issues for 100's of years. Plus the minor detail of France bring next door to Germany and actually being invaded by them.

I notice you haven't addressed my point about the UK's bloody imperial history and what that says about its character.

mathanxiety · 22/08/2020 10:15

www.difp.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=3386
Code telegram from Robert Brennan to Joseph P. Walshe (Dublin)
(No. 9) (Personal)
(Brennan was Irish Minister Plenipotentiary to the US from 1938 to 1947)

Washington, 6 January 1941

Arthur Krock1 had me to lunch. He said President's speech places America in war, but declaration may not come for some months unless Germany wishes it sooner. He says United States will draw out if England collapses within that period. President is considering sending food ships to Ireland but he will ask for quid pro quo.

He asked if Ireland would give use of ports to (a) Britain, (b) America under an American guarantee of Irish independence and unity (or federation) after war. He said it might be made to appear that, by refusing, Ireland was taking a stand against whole English-speaking world, North America, South America, Scandinavia, Belgium, Poland, etc.

I said I believed Ireland would stick to her neutrality whatever offers were made, and that an American guarantee would not save her from being bombed. I asked how guarantee would be implemented if, after war, America had again become isolationist, or a new administration refused to be bound by undertaking, and I recalled Wilson.

He said there seemed to be no reply. He had expected to have a more complete proposal in writing, but it had not arrived. He asked if Chief would invite Ambassador Kennedy to discuss food situation, realising, however, that other matters would also be discussed.

I said I was sure Chief would like to forestall any mistake United States Administration might make and so might like to see Kennedy. He asked what outstanding American had confidence of Irish Government, and I said Conboy.

He said that he had discussed this matter with President, Secretary of State, British Chargé d'Affaires and Kennedy, and that latter is quite ready to go to Ireland. He is to give me something more on the matter in a day or two.

I had almost similar representations made to me on Saturday from more obscure sources.

This was a feeler from FDR on the possibility of opening up the Irish ports for American use, with postwar Irish reunification as the reward.
So much for Anglo-American solidarity, eh?

Irish voters constituted a reliably Democratic bloc in American political life. Irish political control of major US cities (with all that implied in terms of getting out the vote) doesn't require description here, I'm sure.

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