What constitutes to someone being Irish?

[Cybercubed]

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

You guys know that you are having an argument over something that happened 70+ years ago right? Yes, both arguments are valid, but it doesnt matter anymore. It's done. It was what it was for various reasons on both sides. I think some people here need to take a step back and take a breath, maybe have a cup of tea.

England has treated other countries really badly, and I dont deny it. But it has also been treated really badly by other countries. The difference is we move on.

@Wolfgirrl
England may well move on - that tends to happen when history isn't taught particularly well - but apparently you have been left with a little Ireland-shaped sore spot.

Not to worry, nothing a little reading can't cure.

You guys know that you are having an argument over something that happened 70+ years ago right? Yes, both arguments are valid, but it doesnt matter anymore. It's done. It was what it was for various reasons on both sides

I personally never say no to a nice cup of tea.

However, while the events in question may well have happened 70 years ago, the myths generated by Winston Churchill and by relentless anti-Irish propaganda in the British press have never died, with the result that racist, anti-Irish slurs based on ignorance of historical fact remain commonplace, as demonstrated on this thread.

There are not even two 'arguments' here. There is historical fact, well documented and evidenced, and there is naked prejudice based on ignorance.

It is very important not to let lies that fuel hatred go unchallenged.

Wolfgirl - can you imagine a German ever saying ‘Germany has treated other countries badly but it has also been treated badly by other countries.’

Of course not. They acknowledge the mistakes of their ancestors without excuses.

The suggestion that Britain protected Ireland during ww2 is ludicrous. Throughout history Ireland had one enemy, a greater power who occupied us, caused countless deaths and completely and irrevocably destroyed our culture and our language. After hundreds of years of mistreatment it's breathtakingly arrogant to think that a generation or so after bitterly fought for (partial) freedom that the Irish nation would fight alongside their biggest enemy. Would we have been occupied by Germany if the US hadn't entered the war and saved everyone's bacon, probably. Would we have survived occupation by a stronger nation, that sought to seize our land, change our language and kill anyone who resisted, well gee based on history i think so. Suggesting that Ireland should be grateful to Britain for anything at all shows your ignorance and arrogance Wolfgirrl, and to be droning on about ww2 on a thread about Irishness seems a bit nuts tbh.

@OchonAgusOchonO the famine was the best part of 200 years ago, yet dragging it up is why this thread spiralled out of control...

The UK's colonial history (and France and Portugal's) is wrong. I entirely accept that. There were some benefit to the colonised countries (I went to Myanmar a few years ago and was really warmly received by the locals, many of whom are very proud of their ancestors' work with the British army, and feel the UK was on the whole a force for good, with benefits lasting to this day).

However I accept that overall, it was a bad thing. I also accept this about the 2003 Iraq war (have been watching Once Upon a Time in Iraq and plan to buy the book. Just devastating, I spent most of the series in tears).

However; I also think the UK has done some very good things. Such as joining the Allies and playing it's part in defeating the Nazis, who were the biggest evil the world has ever seen. It wasn't 'our' war; we were actually in the group of 'desirable' people that the Nazis did not want to kill. But nonetheless, the UK honoured its commitment to Poland at enormous personal cost, the likes of which Ireland has never seen, and the effects have persevered far longer than the famine etc.

They acknowledge the mistakes of their ancestors without excuses.

Will you now acknowledge Ireland's? The fact it has never thanked any of the Allies for preventing a certain invasion. Regardless of their motives, had they not stepped up, Ireland would have been invaded - that is a fact. The fact that Ireland treated it's own people appallingly, in fact they 'escaped' to the UK. The fact Ireland also profited from the slave trade.

I don't know of any Irish history where they have come to the aid of another country.

I bet none of you will concede the above. When Ireland does something bad, sweep it under the rug. When the UK does something bad, never let them forget about it.

@Deadringer

More excuses...

irrevocably destroyed our culture and our language

It wasnt destroyed 🙄 people are still speaking irish, as for the culture, this thread proves it is very strong!

Our language was wiped out by the Danish. Should we hate the Danes? Endlessly bring it up?

England tortured and killed it's own Catholics in the reformation, and burned down the churches. I'm an English Catholic. Should I hate other English people?

Where does it end?

[quote Wolfgirrl]@OchonAgusOchonO the famine was the best part of 200 years ago, yet dragging it up is why this thread spiralled out of control...

The UK's colonial history (and France and Portugal's) is wrong. I entirely accept that. There were some benefit to the colonised countries (I went to Myanmar a few years ago and was really warmly received by the locals, many of whom are very proud of their ancestors' work with the British army, and feel the UK was on the whole a force for good, with benefits lasting to this day).

However I accept that overall, it was a bad thing. I also accept this about the 2003 Iraq war (have been watching Once Upon a Time in Iraq and plan to buy the book. Just devastating, I spent most of the series in tears).

However; I also think the UK has done some very good things. Such as joining the Allies and playing it's part in defeating the Nazis, who were the biggest evil the world has ever seen. It wasn't 'our' war; we were actually in the group of 'desirable' people that the Nazis did not want to kill. But nonetheless, the UK honoured its commitment to Poland at enormous personal cost, the likes of which Ireland has never seen, and the effects have persevered far longer than the famine etc.

They acknowledge the mistakes of their ancestors without excuses.

Will you now acknowledge Ireland's? The fact it has never thanked any of the Allies for preventing a certain invasion. Regardless of their motives, had they not stepped up, Ireland would have been invaded - that is a fact. The fact that Ireland treated it's own people appallingly, in fact they 'escaped' to the UK. The fact Ireland also profited from the slave trade.

I don't know of any Irish history where they have come to the aid of another country.

I bet none of you will concede the above. When Ireland does something bad, sweep it under the rug. When the UK does something bad, never let them forget about it.[/quote]
Oh my god just stop, I am embarrassed for you! You sound like some pissed up bloke in the pub droning on thinking everyone is hanging onto his every word when actually everyone is squirming uncomfortably willing him to shut up!

Saying that our language and culture wasn't destroyed shows your ignorance, whether you like it or not. And if anyone saved Ireland, it was the USA, they saved Britain too.

[quote Wolfgirrl]@Deadringer

More excuses...[/quote]
excuses for what?

@Wolfgirrl - But nonetheless, the UK honoured its commitment to Poland at enormous personal cost, the likes of which Ireland has never seen, and the effects have persevered far longer than the famine etc.

That is utter nonsense. According to your own government, In WWII there were 384,000 soldiers killed in combat, but a higher civilian death toll (70,000, as opposed to 2,000 in WWI), largely due to German bombing raids during the Blitz: 40,000 civilians died in the seven-month period between September 1940 and May 1941, almost half of them in London.
www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/olympic-britain/crime-and-defence/the-fallen/

One million died in the famine alone. Add in all the other deaths and destruction at the hands of Britain, and the UK losses are a small fraction of that.

The fact that Ireland treated it's own people appallingly, in fact they 'escaped' to the UK. The fact Ireland also profited from the slave trade.

How, exactly, have Ireland treated their own people appallingly? Ireland is not perfect but neither is any other country. Most Irish who went to the UK did so for economic reasons. Economic reasons that existed mainly due to 100's of years of occupation by a country that sucked it dry, that ensured the native people were subjugated and poor.

I think you'll find that benefits of the slave trade mainly went to the establishment in Ireland. The establishment were British.

I don't know of any Irish history where they have come to the aid of another country.

Maybe try reading about Ireland's participation in UN peace keeping.

And if anyone saved Ireland, it was the USA, they saved Britain too.

That is true. If the USA hadn't come in, the UK would probably have lost the war. However, you never see any gratitude to the USA from the UK.

@Happyspud

I've a funny story from my teenage travels in the US. I was in Banana Republic buying something with travellers cheques and the guy behind the till said 'wow, weird accents. Where are you girls from?'. I said Ireland. He said 'Ireland? Where's that? Never heard of it'. So we explained where it is and said something about being Irish' and he clapped his hands and excitedly squealed 'IRISH?? I'm Irish'. 😅

That is funny. What on earth was he thinking! My x used to say Ireland without the 'r' because he was English and we ended up in a ludicrous conversation with the other party (American) thinking we were from Holland. Then I got told that I had a beautiful English accent. I have a lovely Irish accent :D I found Americans could not identify where I was from. Unless your accent is quite stage Irish, they are truly stumped.

Point proven - just excuses, excuses, excuses.

Embarrassed for you all.

There is a quote from the Thick of It I am going to leave you all with: 'I have never known anyone so proud, yet so useless'.

Goodbye.

@Wolfgirrl - Point proven - just excuses, excuses, excuses.

I made no excuses. I simply refuted the nonsense you were spouting. Interesting that you ignore all of that and come back with childish retorts instead. You have proven nothing other than your own inability to engage with points that disprove your own.

@Wolfgirrl - There is a quote from the Thick of It I am going to leave you all with: 'I have never known anyone so proud, yet so useless'.

An excellent example of picking up your ball and going home because you don't get your own way

The thick of it is right. Thick and arrogant. If Wolfgirrl doesn't help op decide that she is Irish and not English nothing will.

@OchonAgusOchonO

Do you deny that if the Allies had not taken on the Nazis, Ireland would most likely have been invaded and suffered an appalling fate? Can I please have a yes/no rather than what-aboutery.

@KingFredsTache

The Irish also don’t like to confront the level of misogyny endemic in the culture.

What fucking bollocks. How do you think abortion was made legal in Ireland in the first place? Do you ever actually speak to any Irish people, because I do, lots of them. Yes some of them are still misogynist twats, just like some Brits, but lots of them voted to legalise abortion, they are horrified about what went on in the laundries and don't like the misogyny of the Catholic Church.

I am Irish

I am Irish

Right, so presumably you were involved at some level in the campaigning of legalising abortion? Did you do that alone then, if no one else was wanting to confront misogyny? I would say getting the law changed so that women can access an abortion in their own country is a pretty good effort at 'confronting the level of misogyny endemic in the culture'.

I know there are misogyny in Ireland, both in society and at top/legal level, and those who ignore it. But exactly the same can be said for Britain? And there are plenty in Britain who refuse to confront it as well.

@Wolfgirrl - I thought you had flounced off the thread

Do you deny that if the Allies had not taken on the Nazis, Ireland would most likely have been invaded and suffered an appalling fate? Can I please have a yes/no rather than what-aboutery.

There is no clear yes/no answer to this question as it is impossible to say whether Germany would have invaded. Ireland was mainly at risk of invasion because of UK involvement in the war. The German plans to invade Ireland were to facilitate am invasion of the UK. If the UK were not in the war, would Ireland have been geographically, politically or economically important enough to invade? Probably not.

Ireland was mainly at risk of invasion because of UK involvement in the war.

I am still chuckling at the assertion that 'Britain stepped in to protect Ireland from the Nazis' 😂

As we already have neutrality in common maybe Ireland should also adopt this approach.