What constitutes to someone being Irish?

[Cybercubed]

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

I've got an Irish passport application in progress. My dad was born in NI. Didn't even live there that long. I'm only doing it for Brexit reasons. I feel like a fraud.

Then started thinking I ought to get DC sorted with a passport. They are also entitled to an Irish passport. Wondered about them just having an Irish passport instead of both. Feel like a double fraud!

Tudor conquest.

Tudor conquest what? The reason they don't speak Irish in Ireland any more? Nope, not really....like I said Google 'National Schools' for starters.

@BrassicaBabe, if I had a pound for every Brexit voter who extolled the virtues of throwing off the bonds of European tyranny and taking back border control, and then told me, with an air of being very clever indeed, that they’d applied for an Irish passport, I’d be quite rich.

@SaintofBats yes that is very hypocritical, and something I pulled a family member up on the other week!

@KingFredsTache

The Tudor conquest of Ireland was when English was introduced as the language of trade, finance etc. Basically giving advantage to English speakers and pushing Irish into the working classes. No, it isnt right. But then neither is the fact that the Old English language died after the Norse invasion. Do I want an apology or acknowledgment from Denmark or Norway? No.

Google 'National Schools' for starters.

The secular schools the government tried to establish in 1831, where all children would be taught together, equally, regardless of religious denomination. Whose board of overseers consisted of both Protestants and Catholics. Those schools?

How evil of the horrid Brit government, to want all children to have access to education and learn to live and grow peacefully together

The Tudor conquest of Ireland was when English was introduced as the language of trade, finance etc. Basically giving advantage to English speakers and pushing Irish into the working classes. No, it isnt right. But then neither is the fact that the Old English language died after the Norse invasion. Do I want an apology or acknowledgment from Denmark or Norway? No

It's not really the same - an education system was set up which strictly forbade the Irish language being spoken at all (I guess the Irish should be grateful for that as well) and it died out almost completely very quickly. A whole language, unconnected to English almost wiped out entirely. This was only in the 1800s, it was less than 100 years before the next invasion that, as you put it, 'would have wiped out Ireland's (already wiped out) language'.

A lot of people, myself included, have relatives (mostly dead now) who were affected in some way by what happened as a result of British rule in Ireland (and I'm not even including The Troubles in that). I'm not saying every single Irish person is perfect and every English person is evil, but you are just coming across as quite ignorant with your 'the Irish were neutral in WW2 because they bottled it' statements when you look at the wider context of the circumstances of the country at the time.

I don't know why you are bitching about it anyway, it's not like the British are constantly self flagellating about it or anything, the vast vast majority of them have absolutely no idea any of it even happened and the ones that do don't give a fuck anyway.

The secular schools the government tried to establish in 1831, where all children would be taught together, equally, regardless of religious denomination. Whose board of overseers consisted of both Protestants and Catholics. Those schools?

How evil of the horrid Brit government, to want all children to have access to education and learn to live and grow peacefully together

Yeah, and Irish was strictly forbidden in those schools and subsequently in wider society. Why? Why couldn't English speaking children have learnt Irish as well?

Yeah, and Irish was strictly forbidden in those schools and subsequently in wider society. Why? Why couldn't English speaking children have learnt Irish as well

You would have to go back in time and ask the Irish people (both Protestant and Catholic) who ran the schools and decided these things.

It was not British government policy

Why should we be self flagellating? Do you self flagellate over the way Ireland treated unmarried mothers? Over the fact Ireland looked the other way during WW2 and refused to stand up to it's own enemy, hoping others would? Over the fact Ireland also profited from the slave trade and the British Empire? And that isnt even starting on the Troubles..

Whilst conveniently overlooking the fact England, Scotland and Wales were the reason Ireland wasnt invaded by the Nazis; the fact England offered a safe haven for the Magdalene girls; that millions of Irish came to England to escape the famine and were granted residency; that to this day, Irish people often travel to the UK for university, education and employment opportunities, and happily take the benefits.

As for your language nearly being 'wiped out entirely', ours was wiped out entirely. Yours has made a resurgence and is protected now. Ours is gone. We got over it.

As for your relatives, you have relatives that died in the famine? I probably do as well (great great grandparents were Irish & must've travelled to to England around that time). But hey - that's history, I dont blame anyone. Equally I have many relatives that died in WW2 - my great granddad's lungs failed due to mustard gas, 2 more drowned on a war ship that was torpedoed. I don't blame the Germans or request that they 'self flagellate' over it. It is in the past.

You really need to stop with your bizarre guilt trip quest to make every English person responsible for their history. It is self pitying, pointless and misleading.

England has treated other countries really badly, and I dont deny it. But it has also been treated really badly by other countries. The difference is we move on.

and the ones that do don't give a fuck anyway.

Bit unfair. Many people who know about it have a great grandparent who emigrated in the famine.

@Wolfgirrl

Why should we be self flagellating? Do you self flagellate over the way Ireland treated unmarried mothers? Over the fact Ireland looked the other way during WW2 and refused to stand up to it's own enemy, hoping others would? Over the fact Ireland also profited from the slave trade and the British Empire? And that isnt even starting on the Troubles..

Whilst conveniently overlooking the fact England, Scotland and Wales were the reason Ireland wasnt invaded by the Nazis; the fact England offered a safe haven for the Magdalene girls; that millions of Irish came to England to escape the famine and were granted residency; that to this day, Irish people often travel to the UK for university, education and employment opportunities, and happily take the benefits.

As for your language nearly being 'wiped out entirely', ours was wiped out entirely. Yours has made a resurgence and is protected now. Ours is gone. We got over it.

As for your relatives, you have relatives that died in the famine? I probably do as well (great great grandparents were Irish & must've travelled to to England around that time). But hey - that's history, I dont blame anyone. Equally I have many relatives that died in WW2 - my great granddad's lungs failed due to mustard gas, 2 more drowned on a war ship that was torpedoed. I don't blame the Germans or request that they 'self flagellate' over it. It is in the past.

You really need to stop with your bizarre guilt trip quest to make every English person responsible for their history. It is self pitying, pointless and misleading.

England has treated other countries really badly, and I dont deny it. But it has also been treated really badly by other countries. The difference is we move on.

It's not my language - my language is English, I was born in England to one English and one Irish parent (I know, imagine an Irish person wanting to marry an awful English person right, it just doesn't happen, all Irish hate the English!) I consider myself British, but would also describe myself as half Irish.

Maybe that's why my views are a bit more nuanced whereas you are coming across as ignorant and unpleasant.

I bid you good day

@KingFredsTache

My views are nuanced. If they weren't, I would be claiming the English are saints and always have been. I'm not.

My late DH 's maternal grandfather came from Ireland.DH's mother and all her siblings were born in the UK.DH always considered himself British with Irish ancestry.I have Irish ancestry going back even further, to my great great grandparents. I just say I am British with some Irish blood.

I meant DH's mother. Sorry for typo

Why should we be self flagellating? Do you self flagellate over the way Ireland treated unmarried mothers? Over the fact Ireland looked the other way during WW2 and refused to stand up to it's own enemy, hoping others would? Over the fact Ireland also profited from the slave trade and the British Empire? And that isnt even starting on the Troubles..

You know we where slaves.Not only african people where sold in to slavery.Irish people where as well.

And to be fair its not only Ireland The British Empire plundered.India,Canada,South America and Africa.

Even though we where neutral in ww2 we still joined and fought alongside Britain.Many men and women where ostrasized from Ireland because. of it.

Read up on that and the Irish Slaves.And the famine was genocide.

Whereas the famine occurred 'naturally', the English government ballsed up its response, and you're complaining the apology wasnt good enough?

There was no famine - there was a failure of the potato crop (blight). We were just taxed into oblivion with all our corn and sheep/cattle sold by vicious British landlords. The potato was the only crop left to us and that suffered blight so we had nothing to eat. Not because there was a famine, but because the CRUEL British wouldn't let us have our own crops/livestock. They EXPORTED our crops while we were starving. They watched us merrily from London die on the roads and emigrate in our droves. If you delude yourself that the failure of ONE CROP was the reason for a famine, then you're fucking deluded.

@rayoflightboy no it wasnt. A genocide is a deliberate killing. The famine was not deliberately caused by the British government. I think it is distasteful to try to claim it was a genocide.

And no 'you' or 'Ireland' did not join up in WW2. Thousands of very brave individuals from Ireland did, but the country as a whole looked the other way & did nothing to help.

The Irish 'slavery' you speak of is a myth. There is even a wiki page about the myth. Here you go:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_slaves_myth

So, I suggest you 'read up' before making any more false allegations.

Ireland has some of the most fertile soil for growing crops, raising livestock. Yet, there was a 'famine'. In this richest of soils. Give me a fucking break.

Wolfgirrl We had no gripe with any nation and as an outlying island, were fairly unequipped to do much. Yes, out of poverty, some joined the British army to earn a wage. We did not do it out of allegiance to Britain. I can guarantee you that.

And that is precisely why Irish Americans love being Irish. They feel that they probably would still be in Ireland if it wasn't for the 'famine'.

A genocide is a deliberate killing.

Yes by the British.
There was no famine - there was a failure of the potato crop (blight). We were just taxed into oblivion with all our corn and sheep/cattle sold by vicious British landlords. The potato was the only crop left to us and that suffered blight so we had nothing to eat. Not because there was a famine, but because the CRUEL British wouldn't let us have our own crops/livestock. They EXPORTED our crops while we were starving. They watched us merrily from London die on the roads and emigrate in our droves. If you delude yourself that the failure of ONE CROP was the reason for a famine, then you're fucking deluded.

www.theburkean.ie/articles/2020/06/14/the-irish-were-slaves-deal-with-it

And actually being Irish we learn about Irish history.The British dont,

You just have to look at Bloody Sunday to realise that.

@rayoflightboy

Starvation wasnt the biggest killer in the time of the famine. Disease was. The blight & problems with food shortages just made it worse. Diphtheria was the main one. It was a perfect storm of events, from what I have read. Yes, made worse by the British, I have no doubt. But to say it was all deliberate (aka planned) is absurd.

As for watching people die, Ireland watched English, Welsh and Scottish people die by their hundreds of thousands in WW2 and did nothing to help us. Why do you have such double standards?

Why would we help you?

We remained neutral.

Starvation wasnt the biggest killer in the time of the famine

Just reread that,really slowly.

Ireland where not the only country that was neutral.

And to be fair would you help out a country that invaded you for 800 years and stripped you of any national pride and languages

Cause i know i wouldnt..