What constitutes to someone being Irish?

[Cybercubed]

Born there? Parents from there? Grandparents from there?

I'm born and raised in England, my parents are both Irish (mum from Belfast Dad from the ROI). In England whilst growing up people routinely called me Irish and so that's how I saw myself. Then I moved to Northern Ireland as teenager and had a reality check, because then everyone started calling me English. I still have an English accent so everyone still refers me to as an English person here. I've always understandably have a bit of an identity crisis therefore, compounded by the fact that the "British vs Irish" issue is right of the forefront of Northern Ireland politics as well I don't feel I fit in with either community here.

We've all heard of the term 'plastic paddy' which usually gets thrown at anyone with a non Irish accent calling themselves Irish. I personally don't really identify as anything more and feel kinda stateless but do you think calling yourself Irish should be reserved for those who are born and/or raised there only?

Yes @Flaxmeadow Dr. Kinealy's research mentioned in your link as
proving "beyond a reasonable doubt that there was sufficient food in Ireland to prevent mass starvation, and that the food was brought through the worst famine-stricken areas on its way to England." can be read here

www.historyireland.com/18th-19th-century-history/food-exports-from-ireland-1846-47/

enslaved you and wiped your culture/language off the planet.... rule of the country that did all that to it

When was this?

Jane

It's a different Kinealy

But the country itself made zero official contribution to the war effort, presumably because they didnt want to pick the wrong side in case the Nazis won.

Maybe it was also because Ireland was still recovering socially and economically from a civil war, involving a country that had already invaded them and tried to wipe out their language/culture entirely (Google 'National Schools'). If you think it was simply because they didn't want to 'pick the wrong side' you are totally ignorant, it's much more complicated than that.

I'm not sure, I know their diet relied heavily on potatoes which is why it had such a huge effect.

I have to say, you are not exactly coming across as educated on this subject, but that's not stopping you making some pretty strong statements!

As it happens I do understand what you are trying to say - as someone with one English and one Irish parent I have seen and heard lots of sides to everything. But you are not coming across well!

Wolfgirll, I don’t think you’re addressing any of the points made in my post at all. Less than 15 years previously, Ireland had been at war with Britain. If Britain had declined to join Germany in a war against a third party in 1959, would you have told off British World War 2 veterans for their lack of “moral fibre”? Which is not to say I’m a fan of DeValera at all, I disagree with much of what he did and think the history of Ireland, north and south, for most of the twentieth century is very sad. But actions have to be understood in the context of the time.
Btw, when you talk about the British saving us from the evil invasion that would have wiped our language out, which language are you talking about?

I actually also agree with some of what is being said on both sides, but it's hard to say anything without being jumped on.

FWIW, from Wikipedia:
The historian Cecil Woodham-Smith wrote inThe Great Hunger: Ireland 1845–1849that no issue has provoked so much anger and embittered relations between England and Ireland "as the indisputable fact that huge quantities of food were exported from Ireland to England throughout the period when the people of Ireland were dying of starvation". (She did acknowledge that the British government assisted during the first phase of the famine).

John Ranelaghwrites that Ireland remained a net exporter of food throughout most of the five-year famine. While in addition to the maize imports, four times as much wheat was imported into Ireland at the height of the famine as exported, much of the imported wheat was used as livestock feed.

To answer your question Bedroom, people wouldve expected Ireland to join the Allies (not just the UK but the French, the Americans and the Chinese) because Ireland was going to be invaded as well. Nobody would expect Ireland to join the Allies to protect England, but it seems the Irish expected England to join the Allies to protect Ireland. Had England put up no resistance, Ireland would certainly have been invaded.

Frankly I dont think Ireland refused to help because of a grudge, I think they bottled it and used the grudge as an excuse. Which is understandable as the Nazis were truly terrifying, nobody knows what they would do in those circumstances.

[quote Wolfgirrl]@Bedroomdilemma

Still avoiding addressing Ireland's lack of moral fibre during WW2 I see...

Happy to let England defend you, not happy to admit it or show any gratitude..[/quote]
Please stop, it's cringe!

@KingFredsTache

🤷‍♀️ if I am wrong, just say so. Personally I think endlessly bringing up a famine from 200 years ago and blaming people that weren't even alive back then is very 'cringe' and woe-is-me.

Btw, when you talk about the British saving us from the evil invasion that would have wiped our language out, which language are you talking about?

Yes, I'm interested in this question too!

Wolfgirl - Ireland does not need to thank Britain for winning the war as it was Russia and the US which beat Nazi Germany, not the U.K. The sacrifice made by Russia was enormous - on a totally different scale to the Blitz - and yet I don’t think the UK has ever thanked them for it. Instead, there is a national myth that the U.K. beat Germany almost single-handed and were the ‘good guys’ of history. Any attempt at looking at the full extent of history - and the many atrocities of Empire - is met with outrage.

Unlike Germany, Britain has never faced up to its past and still teaches a ‘we were the good guys’ national history. This does get people’s backs up. E.g. all my DD was taught about the slave trade was William Wilberforce

Wolfgirll, I don’t know why you start off your latest post with “to answer your question”. There were 2 questions in my last post (clearly marked with ?) and I’m pretty sure you didn’t answer either of them.

The census is coming out next year, what do those born in the UK of Irish parents tick for their ethnicity, White British or White Irish?

I always assumed white Irish but then people tell me its White not actual bloodline. But I could be wrong about that.

@Eyewhisker

Of course England didnt single handedly win the war! That is nonsense trotted out by UKIP types. But the UK joined the Allies & played it's part, as did the French (despite stupid jokes made by the English). Ireland didnt participate at all.

What do other countries do to acknowledge their ills that England doesn't do? Did you know Ireland profited from the Atlantic slave trade as well? What are they doing to make up for it?

I'm talking about Irish/Gaelic and English speakers in Ireland. Yes, I know what is coming next.

Oh god, this thread.

Can we not just accept that Britain was an arsehole to much of the world for 800+ years, particularly to Ireland, and that a lot of people around the world, particularly in Ireland, do not have the highest regard for Britain due to Britain spending centuries being an absolute cunt of a nation? I don't feel personally attacked as a Brit when people in those countries which Britain repeatedly fucked over have a dim view of Britain's historical role. I don't even feel personally attacked when people have a dim view of Britain now, because look at our government, our recent actions and the way issues such as migration are spoken about these days- I also have a very fucking dim view of Britain. But I wonder how much of that has to do with my parents being Scottish and Welsh rather than English, tbh. There is a lot less of the 'glorious Britannia' sentiment outside England.

Anyway. Sorry, op .

(Before anyone triumphantly informs me there is no such country as Britain, yes, we all know, and you also know perfectly well what I mean :) )

It's a different Kinealy
I'm pretty sure it's the same one. I have to go shopping now so don't have time to check!

I'm talking about Irish/Gaelic and English speakers in Ireland. Yes, I know what is coming next.

Well go on then, tell us why the 1930s the vast majority of the population of Ireland were speaking English?

That should say why by the 1930s....

@unmarkedbythat

Of course we can. But it wasnt just Britain being an arsehole was it? Ireland profited from the slave trade, as did Wales and Scotland. They all benefitted from the Empire as well. But only England is expected to apologise.

I guess it is easier to blame another country than face up to your own past.

As for Ireland, yes England was an arsehole to Ireland. But Denmark was an arsehole to England in years gone by. Why don't people hurl constant insults at Denmark?

I also have a very fucking dim view of Britain

Me too. But, and to go back to the point of the original thread, it's where I was born and brought up and I would not pretend otherwise. It's lovely, and interesting, to have heritage somewhere else but to tell a child they are Irish when they were born and bred in London is IMO a recipe for confusion. Great to live in an Irish community, but they are still Londoners and there is nothing wrong with that.

they are still Londoners and there is nothing wrong with that.

There is a lot wrong with being English according to the posters on this thread...

@KingFredsTache

Tudor conquest.