Help! I don't want to pay FIL's bills!

[Blurp]

The background: DH has 3 siblings who live nearby. MIL died a few years ago, so FIL lives alone in the house DH grew up in. They describe themselves as "very close" and have always gone to FIL's twice a week for dinner (just the siblings and their kids, not partners). When MIL was alive, she cooked; since her death, they take it in turns to cook, so DH cooks once every other week. This costs about £25 each time, so about £50 per month.

FIL has recently retired. He has absolutely no savings (MIL was a HUGE spender and just spent it all), and gets only a state pension. He's realised that he can't afford to pay for all the bills. The house has 6 bedrooms, so it's huge, expensive Council tax, expensive to heat etc.

In my head, the solution is that he needs to move somewhere smaller and more manageable. However, DH & siblings are not in favour of this because then they wouldn't be able to go round all at once, certainly not twice a week.

His brother has suggested that they all chip in each month to cover the bills - about £50 each. So including the cost of cooking once a fortnight, we'd be forking out about £100 a month for this.

We could afford it, but we'd be sacrificing other things. For instance, we'd like to move to a bigger house (the kids would love some outdoor space). But that would be very tight financially if we had this extra money to pay each month. We'd also like to start saving some money for the kids each month too - £25 each would build up to a decent amount.

DH agrees with me in principle, but is being put under pressure by his siblings. He said he'd feel bad continuing to go to dinner twice a week if he wasn't paying his share. But he also doesn't want FIL to have to move, thereby possibly meaning that they can no longer all visit together.

There was a vague suggestion at one stage that if FIL didn't have enough space, they'd all take it in turns to go round each others' houses, so we'd host every other week. This won't work because both me and one of the other siblings partners work from home and it would be too disruptive (and anyway, I don't really want a big crowd of people in the house once a fortnight). Again, I feel like I'm getting in the way of the plans.

Any suggestions? Is it unfair of me to say no to us paying money to FIL each month? Or is it reasonable to expect him to live within his means, even if that means moving house?

I would say start looking for houses that have a good amount of downstairs space or can be converted into that. Ie reception room knocked through to make open plan kitchen. We have a modest 4 bed and have plenty of downstairs space for large numbers of people. They just need to get creative. Either that or release some equity in the house.

It's your dhs dad if he wants to contribute then he should. If your dad needed help would dh grudge you helping your dad?

No axe to swing here but did anyone think of equity release? We did it through Key Retirement with Legal and General (you may be able to cut out Key Retirement and go straight to L & G)
There are some downsides which I'm sure will be pointed out but our experience has been fine and L & G practically invisible. Would certainly give FIL some financial freedom.

Why aren't partners allowed to attend?

He doesnt need a 6 bedroom house. He needs a place that has a decent kitchen and large lounge/diner.

It might be that he couldnt find that, but equally he might.

Or invest the money. What they all get up to, people would give their high teeth for.

Ohhh no, no way, that is a situation that needs resolving properly! A 6 bedroom house with lots of stairs will be expensive to run and harder to look after. Plus, it will just get harder and more expensive as the years go by. He would do much better to move somewhere smaller, he always knock a dining room and living room / kitchen into a big open plan family room if needs be in order to have the room to entertain that many people at once. Otherwise you are all going to be paying an increasing amount of money so that he can live in a house bigger than her needs or can afford, in order for what, them all to be able to stay there a week at Christmas? That’s the only time he would actually need such a big house. If he downsized, the funds released could always be shared between the siblings, which if FIL lives at least another 7 years will remove the inheritance tax on it. He could even take out an interest-only mortgage on it, paid for by all of the siblings, with the mortgage funds shared between them equally. That would enable you to have the bigger house you need, help the others too no doubt, and the cost of servicing the mortgage could be shared between them too. Again, reduces inheritance later, and reduces the amount that Council can potentially claw back if FIL has to go into care at any point. Otherwise the full costs can be recovered by the Council after his death from his estate. I know someone whose parents have done this, the two siblings pay £200pcm each, and each received £200k, which means they are each now mortgage free.

Is he eligible to claim for pension benefit or is there money that be saved by changing energy provider?

I'm 65 he sounds as if he's 85, i downsized when my children left,so i only had a small mortgage , but in the old house only 3 bed but had a dinning room , i quite often at christmas had 14 to dinner no problem

They exclude you so it may be hard to find out but I expect there are a lot of power dynamics going on.
I wonder if one or two of them have their eyes on the place for themselves when he passes on?
This would also explain the rushing to his every need, trying to curry his favour, and refusing to allow any 1:1 time in case another sibling gets closer to him.
Maybe you can ask as the Christmas turkey gets carved.

Whatever you do dont encourage an equity release. He'll go through it in minutes. This is a young FIL. This dude could conceivably still be alive when retirement for the OP is on the horizon.

Time to move abroad I think.

He has to downsize - why could they not all go round - ridiculous.

@TeaAndBiscuitsAndWine

Ohhh no, no way, that is a situation that needs resolving properly! A 6 bedroom house with lots of stairs will be expensive to run and harder to look after. Plus, it will just get harder and more expensive as the years go by. He would do much better to move somewhere smaller, he always knock a dining room and living room / kitchen into a big open plan family room if needs be in order to have the room to entertain that many people at once. Otherwise you are all going to be paying an increasing amount of money so that he can live in a house bigger than her needs or can afford, in order for what, them all to be able to stay there a week at Christmas? That’s the only time he would actually need such a big house. If he downsized, the funds released could always be shared between the siblings, which if FIL lives at least another 7 years will remove the inheritance tax on it. He could even take out an interest-only mortgage on it, paid for by all of the siblings, with the mortgage funds shared between them equally. That would enable you to have the bigger house you need, help the others too no doubt, and the cost of servicing the mortgage could be shared between them too. Again, reduces inheritance later, and reduces the amount that Council can potentially claw back if FIL has to go into care at any point. Otherwise the full costs can be recovered by the Council after his death from his estate. I know someone whose parents have done this, the two siblings pay £200pcm each, and each received £200k, which means they are each now mortgage free.

FIL should not be down sizing in order to release money for his children. That is money grabbing in the extreme. He is only 65 and can live off his money and enjoy the next 20 or even 30 years of his life. Of course he should pay for his care in the future if he has the funds to do so. It is not the council 'clawing it back'. Who do you think shoukd pay instead? Such a selfish attitude.

He should be able to downsize to a place with a dining room for everyone?

If you can, I'd say do it. I'd rather my children had close family ties than savings - worth more in the long run

But the OP has said that they aren't exactly welcomed nor included. They have to go in another room whilst the FiL sits to have his cup of tea.
Not that I can see why there would need to be an either / or situation

It sounds absolutely lovely that they have a close bond & are lucky enough to be able to all get together in the family home. How great for all the kids too. We've just had to downsize my dad and we've all suffered from it badly. Your children will learn a great lesson about how to respect & look after older people that you might benefit from yourself one day smile If you can afford it, then do it. A place that brings family together is an important place.

He isn't "old". He is mid-60s.
I don't want my dc to grow up thinking we have to tip toe round someone.
I don't want my dc to grow up thinking it is sensible to spend all your earnings without any thought for the future
I don't want my dc to grow up thinking their dc should go short in order to subsidise their parents.
I don't want my dc to grow up to think that it is okay for them to be selfish and live beyond their means and that other people will then subsidise those decisions for decades.

However @Choux raises a good point.

Thank you @BackforGood - a few people on the thread have commented on the lovely family setup, but it's not that lovely. DC are happy enough to keep visiting at the moment (though they haven't seemed to miss it during lockdown), but I guess they'll start to rebel sooner or later.

My family are much more low-key with "family" stuff, but also so much more supportive and just... easy and straightforward. There's no competitiveness, or "show", just people who are genuinely happy to help each other out.

This sounds like a nightmare, he is still very young and being pandered. What will happen when he is frail or has health needs? This needs to be nipped in the bud now!

Gifting cash to someone you expect to inherit from is also tax inefficient. If the property is over the IHT threshold then the estate will be taxed.

Also everything that's already been said: big properties are hard to maintain, and may lead to him being more dependent sooner. My grandpa has managed completely alone in his little bungalow well into his 90s. But he can only just get bathroom-kitchen independently now. He stopped being able to manage stairs easily about a decade ago.

The honest answer is would you do it if it was your side of the family... Not a great situation though!

He is not "old" - he is 60, younger than me. He is just used to being spoiled by the family ( who have their own agendas of course).

It wouldn't surprise me if he found another lady to replace MIL - widowed men of that age are in the minority , he'll be very attractive to many older ladies. You may end up with nothing to worry about if he remarries , lol.

While I think it's nice that some families are so close they are happy to spend a lot of time together and to even consider chipping in to pay a share of a relative's bills/household costs, alternate cooking meals etc there seems to be a lot going on here. Your husband and his siblings obviously have a lot of memories tied up in the property your father-in-law lives in. It does sound a little strange that your husband, his siblings and their children attend these twice weekly dinners, but not their partners. Is this by choice? Were partners invited or not? I know I wouldn't be too happy paying the bills, or food costs to feed 5 adults + however many kids attend, when I was not even at the dinner table with them etc. If you are rich maybe the money is not the real issue but the principle is. That you titled your post saying you don't want to pay his bills makes it clear you think this is unreasonable.

Another thing that would probably p* me off a bit would be paying for a single man to live in a 6-bedroom house he cannot afford when I would like to move into a bigger house myself, but don't because I couldn't afford it! If that makes sense (it is late and brains not my strong point at stupid-o'clock in the morning!) I'm presuming your husband has not suggested moving your family in to live with his dad? Would that be out of the question as far as you are concerned, even if your husband, his dad and/or the siblings proposed something along those lines. What about a house swap? Or would that be another no-no? I guess even if your father-in-law saw some benefit to this is might mean you having to put up with him visiting daily to still spend time in the house and/or you having to host these regular dinners.

How old is he? How fit/healthy/active? Would it be financially better to pay to keep him in his own home rather than the extortionate fees for residential/assisted living etc.

What about a lodger or two to help meet his living costs? Would that be an option - obviously it would have to be someone your husband and his siblings could trust and that your father-in-law could stand to share a house with. Could a part of the house be divided off somehow - like a granny flat, but in reverse with the granny (or grandad in this instance) staying in the larger part of the home and a tenant or two in the annexed bit?

That's about all I can think of at the moment - I'm sure some of the people on here will have some good suggestions for you. Good luck whatever happens - bit of a nightmare for you but I don't think you are being unreasonable to want to spend your money on your family, your kids, a bigger home for your family unit.

@MistressMounthaven. If your pension is low you should get a reduction on your council tax. Speak to AgeUK. They will tell you what you are entitled to. My aunt gets a basic state pension and lives alone in a large 3bed semi and does not pay any Council tax

If he is mid sixties there is a very good likelihood of him finding a new partner. Maybe because there are more older women around than men (though I know this is evening up now) so I doubt the twice weekly meetups will continue, perhaps change to once monthly.

Things are likely to change, I don't think I would want to be the bad guy here, I'd have loved DH and DCs to go off out twice a week. I like time to myself.

There is no way the kids will tolerate going to granddad's twice a week every week when they're older....

I imagine the in-laws are also worried about him finding someone new and so are trying their best to keep him close.