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What have you sacrificed to send your children to independent school?

331 replies

cheeseismydownfall · 04/07/2020 12:10

DH and I are considering this for secondary, having made some rushed decisions in difficult circumstances that has led us to being in catchment for a pretty underwhelming secondary school. Eldest is in Y7 and it isn't working out very well for him. Two younger children in Y5 and Y3 - obviously if we go the independent route it will need to be for all three of them.

We've run the numbers and for three children it is a pretty eye-watering number (all the independents locally are £15k+ a year). It is just about affordable but would mean a significant change in lifestyle and much later retirement (we were planning to start winding down in late 50s - it would mean working for another 10 years and would need to stop overpaying on our mortgage).

My biggest worry is that if our circumstances changed we would have very little cushion in terms of taking a drop in income. It is such a massive commitment.

I'd be interested to hear from others that have faced a similar decision. If you can comfortably afford the fees or have children at an amazing state school this probably isn't the thread for you!

OP posts:
TheoneandObi · 12/07/2020 09:32

Yes many state schools
Have nuggets of excellence. Although overall results wise ours was Worse than average it had a brilliant music dept, in part helped by a network of brilliant brass bands in the area. But whist my two played in it they won two National Big Band championships. And several county choral contests. In the latter case much to the consternation of some parents at the local indie who were heard to mutter 'its positive discrimination you know' at the event. No. It just means that paying for something doesn't automatically make you the winner!

altopredominant · 12/07/2020 09:49

What is this 'education as a whole' thing?

That could take a bit longer than a Mumsnet post, but I'll give it a go! I think the point of education is not (just) to pass exams and get a job, but to learn about the world around you and discover the joy of learning for its own sake, and to develop skills along the way. It frustrates me when people talk about which school subjects you 'use' in later life. In terms of subject knowledge I only 'used' one of my school subjects in my university degree and then I never 'used' any of them in my working life (except a bit of primary school maths) - but I have used the skills I learnt from my education all the time (the ability to learn, analyse, discuss, write etc). I was never going to grow up to be a scientist, or a translator, or a historian - but learning about science, and language, and history has enriched my life massively. But - although I went to a very good selective state school, I think now that my education was fairly narrowly focused on getting good grades in my exams. If you weren't on the netball A team then sport was pretty much a case of reluctantly showing your face at a PE lesson once a week and hiding at the back. If you weren't one of the music stars, then music was a fairly uninspiring hour once a week trying not to mess up playing a tambourine. My sense was that my school was happy for me to do not much outside my core subjects so that I could focus on getting top results in those (which I duly did). When I got to university it was the first time I'd met kids who'd had a different kind of education from me, and the difference was striking. They were not only more confident but seemed far more informed than me about the world beyond their subject - about sport or the arts or politics or other subjects or whatever it might be. So although my education did hugely enrich my life, I think a more rounded education would have done so even more.

At DS's school there is an expectation that every student will become involved in a wide range of things outside the core curriculum - and the quality of that wider provision is amazing (whether that's in terms of the number and availability of staff, the quality of the facilities, or the opportunities provided - eg to compete in sports matches, perform on stage, visit interesting places, listen to interesting visitors etc). As for the curriculum itself, the subjects are similar to the state alternatives of course (although a bit broader in terms of languages etc) - but it's easier to be inspired and to learn to love learning when you're in a small class, with bright and motivated kids, and with consistently excellent teachers who crucially have the time and resources (and presumably the expectation from their employer) to not only teach you the core exam knowledge but also to teach around the subject, run clubs and support groups, suggest wider reading, follow and develop their students' individual interests and so on. Also the school day is longer, which means there is just more time to fit everything in. Add to that other things like lovely food, lovely grounds, and kids from all over the world with very different backgrounds and experiences from you, and it's a pretty great place to be. Overall, the sense I get is that when a child joins the school, the school says right, we are going to make it our mission to develop every aspect of this child's education to the best of our ability, and to make sure that he/she takes the best possible advantage of everything we can offer here. I'm not suggesting that state schools don't also have that ambition, or that teachers in those schools are any less committed to their pupils' development - but I think it's generally harder to do when you have less time, less freedom, more students, more disruption and just less money.

Hopeforall · 12/07/2020 11:05

Holidays are a couple of weeks a year.

Dancingbear what on earth are you talking about?
Private school holidays are a month at Christmas, a month at Easter and two months in the summer plus a week or 10 days at half term.
I have no idea where you got that idea from.
As for rapists, I’m sure they come from all backgrounds.
If you think boys are so damaged by single sex schools presumably you think girls who go to single sex schools are equally damaged?

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

thedancingbear · 12/07/2020 11:19

^Dancingbear what on earth are you talking about?
Private school holidays are a month at Christmas, a month at Easter and two months in the summer plus a week or 10 days at half term.
I have no idea where you got that idea from.
As for rapists, I’m sure they come from all backgrounds.
If you think boys are so damaged by single sex schools presumably you think girls who go to single sex schools are equally damaged?^

I'm not here for a bun fight. Catch you later.

Hoppinggreen · 12/07/2020 11:23

alto I agree completely
At the dc school they are expected to do at least 2 EC clubs. You would have to be very determined to slip through the cracks and not participate fully in school life. I’m sure there are a lot of inspirational teachers who push the children in all aspects of school life at State schools but with only 18 to a class and plenty of resources it’s much easier

Hoppinggreen · 12/07/2020 11:26

I also agree with thedancingbear single sex schools are unnatural and damaging. It was pretty easy to spot the boys from all boys school when we all arrived at Uni. Some exceptions I know but I would explore any other option available rather than send either of mine to single ex schools

Wolfgirrl · 12/07/2020 12:24

Girls at single sex schools are used to only mixing with boys like the ones I mentioned above, so yes it damages them as well. I left the single sex school system 10 years ago, the misogyny was horrific. I was even punched multiple times at a party by a boy for 'talking too loudly' and refusing to stop. This boy wasnt known for being a psycho or anything, he was fairly popular and seen as normal. Girls were expected to be grateful for male attention and the boys were frankly arrogant and horrendous.

Obviously they wouldn't display the above behaviour in front of their mum would they 🙄

altopredominant · 12/07/2020 13:07

Yes, I do think SS is not generally great for girls either. I grew up in a female household and went to a girls' school, and boys were definitely objects of sexual interest or not - as someone said above, they weren't friends or coworkers.

FoilWrappedSandwich · 12/07/2020 13:24

I'd love for some of you who are commenting on how dreadful single sex schools are to witness the misogyny and sexually inappropriate behaviour girls at mixed sex schools are subjected to on a daily basis. It's starting younger and younger as well. Relentless. This is in a "naice" area , Ofsted good / outstanding etc. But you know best !

thedancingbear · 12/07/2020 13:28

In fairness, the men from my friendship group who went to all-boys schools are (by all indications) decent human beings - except for one, who is a misogynist fucker, who I limit contact with nowadays. The 'issue' presents in these guys as an awkwardness rather than a nastiness but that's because they are moral and intelligent people. If you take those elements away, you have a recipe for disaster.

As mentioned upthread, I went to a below-average comp. I was part of a genuinely mixed friendship group. The boys in particular had all kinds of problems at one point or another - anger management, huge self-esteem issues etc (which, looking back, could be tied to problems at home). I can honestly say that there was never an 'us and them' and I never had any sense that any of the boys/men saw women as different or unequal. These kinds of attitudes didn't even come onto my radar until I got to university (and an oxbridge college that was around 50/50 state versus idependent), and it came as a real shock.

I've never noticed an equivalent in all-girls' alumni, but can believe it exists. I think the male version is where real potential for harm is: toxic masculinity/male privilege together with economic privilege, and an environment that by its nature can engender 'othering' of women, is a pretty dangerous mix.

Wolfgirrl · 12/07/2020 13:29

@FoilWrappedSandwich

I am speaking from my own first hand experience. What is wrong with that? I can only speak as I find.

My school was in a 'naice' 🤮 area and the boys were really truly awful.

thedancingbear · 12/07/2020 13:32

I'd love for some of you who are commenting on how dreadful single sex schools are to witness the misogyny and sexually inappropriate behaviour girls at mixed sex schools are subjected to on a daily basis. It's starting younger and younger as well. Relentless. This is in a "naice" area , Ofsted good / outstanding etc. But you know best !

I can only speak from personal experience but this honestly wasn't a problem amongst my friends but I'm 20+ years out of secondary school. I do think things have deteriorated in recent years.

But i doubt single sex schools are the answer: I have the sense that they just delay and exacerbate the problem until it blows up in adulthood.

Ohsuchaperfectday · 12/07/2020 13:36

Interesting point about dc from the all over world. Being exposed to dc who have lived in and are from many varied countries.

Rather than a narrow clique from 3 roads around the school.
People said to me re grammar'' oh no, it's far better to have local friends' 'I disagreed... I think travelling to villages and having friends from all over is better.

Ohsuchaperfectday · 12/07/2020 13:48

I think with private schools there is simply greater accountability.

In state the teacher can just say.. Oh I have 30 children of course I can't get to know yours... I don't think a private school teacher would be able to say that.

FoilWrappedSandwich · 12/07/2020 13:48

I agree it's more of a societal issue than one that is solely confined to schools. However the access to smartphones and the internet has escalated the problem. I know from my own experience that I was better equipped at 18 (when I went to university) to deal with sexually aggressive behaviour than I would have been at 11 when I started secondary school. And precious as this sounds I do not want my DD exposed to the language that seems to be prevalent amongst some young men today. As an adult I can pick and chose who I mix and socialise with, as a child in school you have no control over who else is on your class. I realise I cannot protect my DD from it forever but I can certainly do as much as I can to shelter her from it whilst she is still a child. Her selective girls independent is very hot on giving the girls the tools they need to navigate and address the endemic misogyny women have to deal with. However I have also heard similar from friends with daughters at single sex state schools so that is not necessarily a private v state issue . But I am firmly of the belief that a single sex education until 18 is better for the vast majority of girls.

altopredominant · 12/07/2020 13:51

Yes, I would never dare use the word 'diverse' to apply to DS's school because it so patently isn't diverse in an economic sense (in spite of a good number of bursaries etc). But I do think it's really eye-opening for DS to be sat next to someone from China or Belgium or India or Zambia in his maths lesson, when up until now nearly everyone he's encountered (at least on a day to day basis) has been white and UK-raised. I think its already helped him to appreciate that there's a much bigger world out there, and that it holds all sorts of possibilities.

thedancingbear · 12/07/2020 13:53

But I am firmly of the belief that a single sex education until 18 is better for the vast majority of girls.

I'm no expert but I think there is data to back this up - girls do better academically and socially in a single sex environment. However the flipside is that the rest of the school system becomes male-only or male-dominated, and that creates its own problems for women. For that reason I think the answers lie elsewhere.

Wolfgirrl · 12/07/2020 14:28

@FoilWrappedSandwich

And precious as this sounds I do not want my DD exposed to the language that seems to be prevalent amongst some young men today

But you will only gave control over that until she is 16 - if you are lucky. And then she goes out into the big wide world full of men, not all of whom are nice.

Starting by batting off unwanted advances of teenage boys and learning how to assert herself to them is a good stepping stone before dealing with grown men.

Hoppinggreen · 12/07/2020 14:32

At DDs school there has been a small amount of inappropriate behaviour by boys but it’s largely peer controlled and if not the SLT ( all female) come down on it like a ton of bricks if it’s exposed.
Also, I would rather she learn about it now and how to deal with it than suddenly come across it at 16/18. Shame she has to at all but there we go

Wolfgirrl · 12/07/2020 14:39

@Hoppinggreen yes I think starting with teenage boys who are obviously not as strong or mentally sophisticated as a grown man is a good place for teenager girls to learn how to deal with the nonsense.

Hoppinggreen · 12/07/2020 14:42

Plus she has known most of these boys since they were 11 and smaller than her so she can handle them .
Sad she has to and thankfully it’s rare

FoilWrappedSandwich · 12/07/2020 15:12

@Wolfgirrl @Hoppinggreen but unfortunately if DD were at a mixed school many of the boys would be considerably older than her. So whilst she may have no trouble putting another 11 year old in his place it may be trickier were she to come up against a 15 or 16 year old. And like I said, my experience from teaching and dealing with the pastoral side of what goes on in a mixed secondary has influenced my thinking this considerably. I'm sure you have made the correct decision you feel is right for your DD as I have for mine based on your own experiences, facts & circumstances available to you. I realise I cannot shield my DD from anything undesirable forever but I was certainly more confident and self assured to fend off unwanted advances and attitudes at 18 than I was at 11 and possibly all the stronger for not having to battle against it every day for the past 7 years and having it be normalised. I certainly have no problem asserting myself now . Anyway this has drifted form the OPs original question so I shall bow out now but thank you for an interesting discussion.

BiscuitLover3679 · 12/07/2020 15:57

I don't know when is better tbh. I was pretty shocked and struggled through uni a bit as was so naive. But it was also nice not being a sex object at 11.

stoneysongs · 12/07/2020 21:28

The diversity thing is interesting - I chose state for my DC because I wanted a more diverse setting than private school! Surely, of the two, a school which selects (on both academic ability and wealth) must be less diverse than one that doesn't? The whole point is that those not bright enough are excluded isn't it? And I know there are scholarships and bursaries, but most have parents earning untypical salaries. There won't be many people who are not academic, or with unemployed parents, or studying to be a mechanic or hairdresser, or in care..
I don't buy the international thing - it might have been true when I was at school in the 80s but the world is a much smaller place now. My DC are in a state secondary in an ordinary town and just off the top of my head have friends from China, Poland, India, USA, Canada, South Africa, France.

blueshoes · 13/07/2020 23:59

I agree with altopredominant and foilwrappedbacon's posts.

I'd love for some of you who are commenting on how dreadful single sex schools are to witness the misogyny and sexually inappropriate behaviour girls at mixed sex schools are subjected to on a daily basis. It's starting younger and younger as well. Relentless. This is in a "naice" area , Ofsted good / outstanding etc. But you know best !

I would agree with this. I don't need silly boys to make my dd feel embarrassed about her period or developing body. She has her whole life to deal with patriarchy and misogyny. I would prefer she gets out of puberty and formulates a stronger sense of self before that nonsense starts. As it is, dd has been at an all girls' school since nursery and she has asked to go co-ed for 6th Form, which we are happy to oblige as she is ready.

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