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Patronii in person, anti Dementors visit the zoo

999 replies

ISaySteadyOn · 05/06/2020 11:30

Never started a long running thread before but I figure even lurkers should take a turn. Hope the title ok.

OP posts:
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17
HauntedGoatFart · 05/06/2020 18:07

@TheCountessofFitzdotterel

Friston is respected. Most of the attacks on him I have seen on Twitter are people who don’t understand the wider applicability of statistical methods. Also the way he uses phrases and metaphors from other fields make it easy to think at first sight his stuff is bonkers.

If anyone is interested, a research group my Dh is part of came up with some similar findings to his in terms of the possibility of either existing immunity or an inert group, which was published as a preprint back in April, but deliberately without any fanfare because you wouldn’t want to have everyone believe you about something like that if it then turned out you were wrong. (Which if Friston turns out to be right means he will be able to say ‘told you so’ to an absolutely epic degree!)

At this point there is a huge political freight attached to Friston’s argument, ie lockdown v release, everything Boris’s fault v not, so it’s not so easy to find either intelligent critique on Twitter or appropriate levels of caution in the media interviews with Friston!

Thanks Countess. I wanted to know if there were valid criticisms and limits to Friston's work - I'm sure there are, because there always are in science - or if it was just scoffy bullshit, and frankly for my own sanity I don't want to get stuck down a Twitter hole right now. Do I want him and Sikora to be right, yes, absolutely. But I do also want to read intelligent criticism, and I'm yet to hear a scientific explanation for the failure of cases to resurge in Europe other than a higher level of population immunity, or at least lack of susceptibility, than expected. A lot of people who have only just learned the word "epidemiologist" now feel equipped to dismiss any criticism as "they aren't an epidemiologist", despite the fact that Gupta absolutely is an epidemiologist and Friston and Sikora are both legit experts in relevant fields.
Cattermole · 05/06/2020 18:09

The thing that gives me the pip is those 357-whatever-it-was deaths. The NHS produces, daily, a document with a breakdown of when and where the deaths in hospital settings have taken place. The Magic Deaths Fairies have managed to double it since lunchtime, but with no context at all. I mean, seriously, if the other 200-odd have taken place in the community and yesterday, we are seriously fucked, no? But if these are catchup registrations dating back from.... whenever.... surely that's an important statistical difference?

Nihiloxica · 05/06/2020 18:20

Haunted - Friston is on Independent SAGE, the self-appointed group set up to criticise the government that the Dementors love, so I think they feel especially betrayed by him. He already has their imprimatur and then he goes against their most fundamental belief.

Have you watched Friston's Unherd interview? It's actually quite boring, he's no Gupta or Levitt or Giesecke. (Jesus, what has my life become? Shock)

He's SUPER cautious and incredibly careful to make sure it is understood that he is a mathematician, not a doctor and he is working with models and can only come up with mathematical interpretations of the data.

His main argument seems to be that according to his models, there is a high degree of resistance to Covid in the population. He uses the idea of immunological "dark matter" as an explanatory tools for why the numbers are working the way that they are.

It is up to immunologists and epidemiologists and virologists to figure out what that "dark matter" might be, but he thinks it varies across populations.

He says that Neil Ferguson's model actually stands up using his model, because if you run the Imperial model based on a high number of people resistant to Covid, you would get roughly the numbers we have now in reality. The mistake Ferguson made was assuming that there was no resistance in the population and that now (according to Friston) looks like a mistake.

Littlebelina · 05/06/2020 18:20

@Cattermole

The thing that gives me the pip is those 357-whatever-it-was deaths. The NHS produces, daily, a document with a breakdown of when and where the deaths in hospital settings have taken place. The Magic Deaths Fairies have managed to double it since lunchtime, but with no context at all. I mean, seriously, if the other 200-odd have taken place in the community and yesterday, we are seriously fucked, no? But if these are catchup registrations dating back from.... whenever.... surely that's an important statistical difference?
I'm being trying to see if I can find date of death for those non hospital deaths. I've found the hospital but not the others. I am curious esp as they jump around more than the hospital.

I understand why they are reporting all deaths( and think it's important that they are) but wish when they started reporting all they kept reporting the hospital only figure in parallel since it what was reported initially. I think that would make it clearer that deaths are decreasing (the 7 day rolling average for hospital only is coming down).

iamapixie · 05/06/2020 18:36

Far too late to the thread but @LivinLaVidaLoki p3 I feel the same.
I still cannot believe that we have given up so much freedom so easily, and the majority seem not to want it back. It is Animal Farm mixed with The Handmaid's Tale. I don't think it was in the book but in the TV version: 'I was asleep before; that's how we let it happen... They said it would be temporary...' Anyway, in case a dementor gets lost and wanders here by accident, no of course I don't mean that this is exactly the same as being a woman in Gilead. But this is how things go terribly terribly wrong; and how the state manages to get away with whatever it wishes without scrutiny.
Still, if dementors are slavering over a second spike, I saw 2 friends at the same time the day before the 6 person rule came in, so that's a small city dispatched with.
Thank you to everyone on here, and especially for the great stats. I am too depressed to say that it's 'keeping me sane' but it is a real help to not feel alone.

pollyhemlock · 05/06/2020 18:48

Useful info here from Prof Sikora about death rates and reporting twitter.com/ProfKarolSikora/status/1268950702526812160?s=20

Khione · 05/06/2020 18:53

Found the perfect mask - anti virus but no good for the NHS

Patronii in person, anti Dementors visit the zoo
Waleshasgonecompletelycrazy · 05/06/2020 18:55

3 months later...I’m fatter, sadder and drinking more than I ever have before. Lockdown definitely hasn’t helped my chances!

Nihiloxica · 05/06/2020 19:01

I’m fatter, sadder and drinking more than I ever have before

Me too, buddy Sad

SockYarn · 05/06/2020 19:01

Want to hear the ultimate in dementoring from our local Council? It's all over the school PTA page.

Apparently when schools go back for their "blended learning" - part time schooling - in August, uniform is being abolished. Just in case little Olivia picks up little Ava's cardi by mistake AND DIES. Hmm

DominaShantotto · 05/06/2020 19:05

@SockYarn

Want to hear the ultimate in dementoring from our local Council? It's all over the school PTA page.

Apparently when schools go back for their "blended learning" - part time schooling - in August, uniform is being abolished. Just in case little Olivia picks up little Ava's cardi by mistake AND DIES. Hmm

Ours is non uniform at the moment - so they can make sure the kids have a completely new change of clothes everyday and no virus hitches a ride.... on the previous day's clothes that went between home and school or the current day's clothes going between home and school.

Yeah it baffles me as well - but since mine have outgrown their winter uniform - fuck it.

Nihiloxica · 05/06/2020 19:05

Gaaaaaaah!

I think uniform for primary school is questionable, but that is just ridiculous.

Like kids in schools with no uniforms never pick up the wrong clothes. Hmm

HesterShaw1 · 05/06/2020 19:05

I know posters keep saying it, but thank goodness for this thread. So many useful links and so much common sense.

There's a thread about holidays at the moment. A poster is planning on booking nothing this summer, because as she confidently proclaims, we are heading for a stricter lockdown. I asked where she'd heard that and she mocked me as though I was the misinformed deluded one. Ok love you stay at home and let everyone else enjoy the countryside and the coast

Our local rag reported today no new CV deaths in Devon and Cornwall during the last 48 hours. They almost sounded disappointed.

Teateaandmoretea · 05/06/2020 19:14

@hestershaw1 some ♟ are frightened of going to Cornwall because of the ‘nightmare’ R rate 🤦🏻‍♀️

enjoyingSun · 05/06/2020 19:15

It is Animal Farm mixed with The Handmaid's Tale

I was thinking more a mild less sinister start to V for Vendetta.

I'm waiting to hear about school uniforms - DD1 would love her own clothes and I'm sure DD2 out grown what she has. I haven't bought next years for secondary yet - I'd normally be picking bits up so it there's not a sudden huge bill.

Teateaandmoretea · 05/06/2020 19:15

@DominaShantotto ours too. Absolutely brilliant dd (y6) had completely grown out of her uniform 😂😂

SpnBaby1967 · 05/06/2020 19:16

What gets me is news pages used to have the death rates as their headlines. You could open the bbc or whatever and the number would be right there.

Then, once it dropped to the 200s and below suddenly this number became harder to find and it required a serious search to find the number. Then, they add phase 2, the numbers jump up again and low and behold there it is, on the front page (granted with a minor scroll down).

New York was death central at one point & now reporting no deaths. So even in a big city it IS possible!!

Teateaandmoretea · 05/06/2020 19:17

I think it’s because the teachers had got used to going to school in shorts... and why not..?

Teateaandmoretea · 05/06/2020 19:18

New York was death central at one point & now reporting no deaths. So even in a big city it IS possible!!

Not if you put down every death in a care home where someone has recently coughed it isn’t

Nihiloxica · 05/06/2020 19:18

I think if the Daily Death Count TV show is going to continue, it needs to start counting other deaths too.

Nihiloxica · 05/06/2020 19:22

I think it’s because the teachers had got used to going to school in shorts... and why not..?

Grin

Good for them.

I can see why they aren't bothering with uniform for the rest of this year. Loads of kids will be out of what they had in March and it's summer now, so ideal to just chill in shorts and t-shirts when the weather is hot.

(Which, admittedly, it's not here today. Chilly and windy and pretty yuck.)

ThatLibraryMiss · 05/06/2020 19:22

Someone posted a link to an article, in the last thread I think, that talked about the way in which deaths are now assumed to be and registered as CV-19 deaths even if they're actually expected deaths from other diseases. Could you post it again, please?

DominaShantotto · 05/06/2020 19:27

@Nihiloxica

I think it’s because the teachers had got used to going to school in shorts... and why not..? Grin

Good for them.

I can see why they aren't bothering with uniform for the rest of this year. Loads of kids will be out of what they had in March and it's summer now, so ideal to just chill in shorts and t-shirts when the weather is hot.

(Which, admittedly, it's not here today. Chilly and windy and pretty yuck.)

We had hailstones the size of marbles earlier on today!

Our school is also having all windows and doors open full-time so the kids need layers to not bake (the classroom is normally scorching in the summer) or freeze!

BarkandCheese · 05/06/2020 19:37

@Nihiloxica

I think if the Daily Death Count TV show is going to continue, it needs to start counting other deaths too.
Now the BBC has dropped the clap for NHS isn’t it about time the briefing buggered off to BBC News 24? It’ll still be there for the people who actually want to watch it, and for the rest of us we can have Pointless back in its rightful place
TheAdventuresoftheWishingChair · 05/06/2020 19:40

Someone posted a link to an article, in the last thread I think, that talked about the way in which deaths are now assumed to be and registered as CV-19 deaths even if they're actually expected deaths from other diseases

This one @ThatLibraryMiss? www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-way-covid-deaths-are-being-counted-is-a-national-scandal

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