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Is my child racist?! I don’t know what to do!

357 replies

Namechangefour · 17/12/2019 19:59

Before I begin, I should say: I’m mixed race though look very white.

I was telling my my 5-year-old that I am going to look for someone to look after him after-school one day a week from next term. And he said, “Fine but please can you not choose anyone black?” I drilled this down and down and down and he meant what he said. Not someone black.

I said “Why?”

And he said “I don’t know.”

I said, “You know grandma was black?” (He never met her, she died before he was born).

And he said, “I know, but I don’t want you to choose anyone black.”

I said, “You know mummy is half black?”

And he said, “I know, but please don’t choose anyone black.”

I had absolutely no idea what to say. I remember reading once that you shouldn’t shame children for saying things like that, and we were in a cafe at the time, so all I said was, “You know what you said isn’t good, right?”

And he said, “I don’t know all the things yet!”

I didn’t want to get into it (mostly because I didn’t want to get it wrong) so I said we’d talk about it later.

But I am still totally unable to think what to say. I’m heartbroken. Completely and utterly heartbroken.

Can someone give me some advice? I don’t know what to do! And I don’t know why he’s saying things like that! We live somewhere pretty multicultural in london, though his school is quite cringe-worthily white and middle class.

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 18/12/2019 22:16

“ Most Christians in the world are non white. Why on earth would it be harder for a non-white person to attend church?!?“.
Because non white people (in this country-which I think is where we are talking about?) are disproportionately poor and disadvantaged. Which makes any regular commitment to anything more difficult.

PreseaCombatir · 18/12/2019 22:24

Poor people can’t commit to going to church? Do you hear yourselves?

You lot are reminding me of a YouTube video I watched, where they were doing interviews in America about whether they should have ID when voting.
The white people were earnestly saying that it was racist because black people weren’t able to access the internet, and unable to obtain IDs, as they were poor and disadvantaged, and might not be able to get to the DMV etc
Then they interviewed black people in a poor area, who basically said why on earth would we not be able to use the internet, and of course we know where the DMV is, thanks you very much.

CoupeCourte · 18/12/2019 23:02

"It’s so depressing to have yet another thread insisting that the playing field is perfectly level and even if it isn’t them’s the breaks...."

Tautoko @BertrandRussell. The wide-eyed faux innocent 'oh no structural racism doesn't exist' on every MN thread where race is discussed is really something to behold.

JassyRadlett · 18/12/2019 23:18

Most Christians in the world are non white. Why on earth would it be harder for a non-white person to attend church?!?

And Christians in the UK are disproportionately white (2011 Census, further analysis by CofE).

BAME Christians are also less likely to be CofE or Catholic, placing them at a lower priority in admissions for those schools. Many schools fill up their faith quota with their own faith; others don’t have a priority category for other Christians.

And BAME people are not a monolith. A religiously selective school in a religiously and ethnically diverse area is unlikely to be able to fully reflect the diversity of the community by prioritising Christians.

And let’s add to that the fact that practising Christians from the two main churches are as a group disproportionately better off and more middle-class than their surrounding communities. More pronounced in the CofE but still in existence for the Catholic Church. So no, @PreseaCombatir, it’s not that they can’t. It’s that they jump through the hoops in these churches proportionally less.

We see the impact in FSM levels in schools that select on faith compared to their surrounding intakes, as well. Selection of any kind leads to a disproportionately financially privileged (and disproportionately English as first language) cohort.

BertrandRussell · 18/12/2019 23:42

Backdoor selection is one of the major scandals of the education system.

Devereux1 · 19/12/2019 08:47

JassyRadlett I don't see how your response answers the question you quoted at the top of your post: Why on earth would it be harder for a non-white person to attend church?!?

drspouse · 19/12/2019 09:11

Because many of the non-white people in the UK are Muslim, Hindu or Sikh??

Devereux1 · 19/12/2019 09:41

Because many of the non-white people in the UK are Muslim, Hindu or Sikh??

Are you answering my post? It's not harder for them to attend church. They have equal opportunity to follow the religion and attend church as anyone else. They simply choose not to.

drspouse · 19/12/2019 09:46

So you are advocating that in order to get a better education, BAME families should give up their religion?
It's pretty hard to attend church if you were brought up Muslim and your entire family will disown you if you become a Christian.

Devereux1 · 19/12/2019 09:50

Adapt and survive.

If you want attend a church school, it is obviously right that you follow the religion that the church school follows. Surely, you are not saying you shouldn't?

If your Muslim family disowns you because you become a christian, then you should question what religion and what set of values your family holds for them to do that in the first place.

Religion is a choice. With it comes consequences. I've never heard of Jewish families moaning about not being to attend Church schools.

TatianaLarina · 19/12/2019 10:06

If you want attend a church school, it is obviously right that you follow the religion that the church school follows. Surely, you are not saying you shouldn't?

You’re not seriously suggesting that people give up a religion they believe in, that is the foundation of their culture, for one they don’t?

BertrandRussell · 19/12/2019 10:06

@Devereux1 - just checking. Is it worth trying to explain the issues with faith schools and other examples of back door selection to you, or are you a fingers in the ears I’m not listening type?

drspouse · 19/12/2019 10:14

It's not worth it. Don't bother. All discrimination is the victim's fault.

It's babies' fault if they come from a chaotic family that are RC but didn't baptise them within 3 months so can't go to an RC school.
It's LAC's fault if they weren't baptised, too, and if their RC foster carer isn't allowed to baptise them even though their RC parents want this, because Social Services say no.
It's Muslim children's fault their parents go to mosque not church.
It's Pentecostal children's fault their parents don't go to a CofE church.
It's poor and Black children's fault their parents can't afford the house in the street next to the school.

BertrandRussell · 19/12/2019 10:20

And the real racists are the people who notice racism.....

JassyRadlett · 19/12/2019 10:22

If you want attend a church school, it is obviously right that you follow the religion that the church school follows. Surely, you are not saying you shouldn't?

I’m saying that faith schools segregate by religion (already quite nasty for a state funded service) and because they segregate by religion they also segregate to a degree by race, class and income (even more nasty).

Devereux1 · 19/12/2019 10:22

If you want attend a church school, it is obviously right that you follow the religion that the church school follows. Surely, you are not saying you shouldn't?
You’re not seriously suggesting that people give up a religion they believe in, that is the foundation of their culture, for one they don’t?

You're not seriously suggesting that a Church school based on the teachings of a particular religion should admit children who don't even follow that religion?

BertrandRussell · 19/12/2019 10:24

“You're not seriously suggesting that a Church school based on the teachings of a particular religion should admit children who don't even follow that religion?“

Well, they are all happy to accept the Godless if they need them to keep the numbers up.....

Devereux1 · 19/12/2019 10:24

BertrandRussell With your question posed so ignorantly, with your other comments on here and with your way of engaging with posters who disagree with you across topics, no, don't bother ramming your explanation down my throat, thanks.

JassyRadlett · 19/12/2019 10:26

Why on earth would it be harder for a non-white person to attend church?!?

Because renouncing their own faith and the tenets of that faith by being regular worshippers in another faith is a pretty significant barrier. Which is what you’re suggesting.

Because jumping through the hoops asked by some CofE and almost all RC schools involves sacraments like baptism, which include renouncing all other gods and faiths. Another fairly significant barrier.

Because ‘I don’t want to be a massive fucking hypocrite to access state services for my kids’ should not be a barrier to accessing those state services.

Devereux1 · 19/12/2019 10:28

I’m saying that faith schools segregate by religion (already quite nasty for a state funded service) and because they segregate by religion they also segregate to a degree by race, class and income (even more nasty).

But they don't segregate by race, class or income do they? You know they don't which is why you had to temper your false accusation with to a degree.

If you are a black Christian who lives in the catchment area of a well regarded Church school, you have 100% equal chance of getting into that school as any white Christian who also lives in the catchment area.

JassyRadlett · 19/12/2019 10:30

Faith admissions are inherently racist. We know that from faith stats in the census, church attendance surveys from the churches themselves and from proxy statistics from oversubscribed faith schools.

That is factual. Those schools are disproportionately white, EFL and financially comfortable.

You can either be ok with that (‘I’m cool with the education system being a bit racist because if those people were really motivated they would overcome it’) or not (‘these are state services and should be equally accessible no matter where your parents come from, who they pray to or how rich they are.’)

Devereux1 · 19/12/2019 10:31

Because renouncing their own faith and the tenets of that faith by being regular worshippers in another faith is a pretty significant barrier..
A self-created barrier. Their choice.

Because jumping through the hoops asked by some CofE and almost all RC schools involves sacraments like baptism, which include renouncing all other gods and faiths. Another fairly significant barrier.
Again, your choice. If you want to go to a Church school, I would have thought going to Church is a bloody obvious requirement.

Because ‘I don’t want to be a massive fucking hypocrite to access state services for my kids’ should not be a barrier to accessing those state services.
Great, I agree with you. Don't be a fucking hypocrite. Stick to your religion that you choose and accept the logic that you can't go to a Church school then. Don't expect the world to revolve around your choices.

TatianaLarina · 19/12/2019 10:34

Answer the question Devereux

You’re not seriously suggesting that people give up a religion they believe in, that is the foundation of their culture, for one they don’t?

BertrandRussell · 19/12/2019 10:35


BertrandRussell With your question posed so ignorantly, with your other comments on here and with your way of engaging with posters who disagree with you across topics, no, don't bother ramming your explanation down my throat, thanks.”

Grin I think the proper response to this, the one usually used by those unwilling to listen is “Ooh, touched a nerve, have I?”

drspouse · 19/12/2019 10:37

You're not seriously suggesting that a Church school based on the teachings of a particular religion should admit children who don't even follow that religion?

Most church schools do accept non-churchgoers.
For example among the CofE primary schools near us:
St A's: one form entry, 10 places for CofE, others by distance
St B's: one form entry, no church priority, only distance
St C's: small village school, no church priority

St Mary's RC: must have been baptised
St Mungo's RC: no church priority, only distance
St Midge's RC: no church priority, only distance, and is historically undersubscribed so now has lots of BAME children who are new to the city, including lots of Muslim families.

CofE secondary on the other hand: church first after LAC and EHCP. Points for feeder schools (but not as many as for church attendance, and St A's and St B's are feeder schools but St C's isn't so they obviously choose which are). Distance (and there are mainly naice houses within half a mile) after that.

In other words, lots of church schools take non-Christians. They don't HAVE to take Christians only. Some CofE schools in majority Muslim areas don't have any Christian pupils.

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