David Baddiels comment about Corbyn

[Minionoftheantichrist]

I’ve looked for a thread about this but can’t see one.
David Baddiel picked up that on the leaders debate Corbyn pronounced Epstein in a way that made it sound more Jewish ie Epshteen as opposed to Epsteen. He said every Jew will have noticed this and that it’s another example of Corbyns antisemitism.

I’m Jewish. I’m no fan of Corbyn but really hadn’t noticed this and even now David Baddiel has pointed it out, am struggling to see this as an example of antisemitism. Am I missing something here? Is this antisemitic?

@Autumn2019
Maybe, just maybe, JC was actually trying to prounounce it as the jewish do. If he didn't pronounce it how the jewish do ,people would then say he deliberately mispronounced the surname because he doesn't want to show any respect to a jewish name. So the man can't really win.

Erm, he could 'win' by pronouncing the man's name correctly. Like every single other person does. Which would have attracted no attention whatsoever.

Mispronouncing someone's name is not 'showing respect'. Quite the reverse.

I personally think that anglifying names is racist and offensive.

I don't think you understand, at all. My surname is an Anglicized version of the Polish name that my family were given in the 19th century. It was Anglicized by my grandfather in the 1950s.

It would be bizarre & disrespectful if someone randomly decided to start using the old Polish form of my surname. It would make it seem like someone was deliberately trying to draw attention to the fact that my background is not British.

It is not 'racist and offensive' to pronounce someone's name correctly.

^
With respect, I take offence at you saying "putting the sht in names that end in Stein is a thing amongst anti-semites." I am from Austria and this is how the name is pronounced by everyone. Also in other German-speaking lands this is regular pronunciation. Are you then saying we are all anti-semites unless we pronounce it the American way?^

Ganz schön. Ich kann Deutsch auch...

I know, and you know, that the average English speaker (American or English alike) doesn't magically know how to phonetically pronounce German, and therefore they ^
don't. In fact, I got corrected by a monoglot English speaker on how to pronounce the name Braun, not long since.

We've (me included) covered what st phonetically represents in German orthography in the thread so far. But it is extremely odd for any English speaker to pronounce the name of an American in an authentic manner, and if people tell me that actually, English-speaking anti-semites play up the traditional pronunciation to emphasise that the person concerned comes from a Jewish family, then that's relevant.

It's certainly more relevant than either of us saying, "but he's pronouncing it in a German way". No-one does that in the UK. Not with Einstein, not with Gertrude Stein.

@bellinsurge I definitely take your point, though I do always endeavour to pronounce British names correctly. The British pronunciation of Merkel makes me shudder :)

However, it would worry me if German-speakers could be labelled as anti-semites simply because that is their native pronunciation. This is how JamieVardy's post came across.

@JamieVardysHavingAParty Entschuldigung, x-post :)

However, it would worry me if German-speakers could be labelled as anti-semites simply because that is their native pronunciation. This is howJamieVardy'spost came across.

I honestly wouldn't worry about it. If JC was a native German-speaker, no-one would bother about this, especially if it was a one-off incident. The problem is the cultural context.

TinySnowflake kP!

Most Jews of German origin have been here for at least 80 year, many are 4th or 5th generation. Nobody Jewish who has been here more than a generation would ever use the German pronunciation of their name, they probably don’t even speak a word of German.

The fact that DB said that JC had pronounced the jewish name to sound "more Jewish" to me sounds like JC had pronounced it as or at least close to a jewish pronounciation. I don't know how Epstein pronounces his own name either to be fair and i don't think many people do. Most are probably going by what they are used to hearing on media. But given that he is jewish ,pronouncing it thus is reasonable i think. Just because media, americans or the british choose to pronounce a name in a certain way doesn't make it right. If one chose to anglify ones own name or has an anglified named passed down to them then thats fine and people should pronounce your name how you want. Supposing there are some jewish people out there who share the surname Epstein and want their surnames to be pronounced how the jewish do- should their surname also be pronounced as the media, americans or the british see fit.

Baddiel was using verbal shorthand. It isn't a "Jewish way". It's a German way and the dratted man was American and born in Brooklyn. He was as American as Captain America...

I winced when Corbyn said it and I'm not Jewish.

Just for clarity there isn't a 'Jewish' way of pronouncing words. Epstein is a Germanic origin name and would be pronounced in a Germanic way originally. There are Jews all over the world with different mother tongues. If your name was David Levi and you pronounced it Day-vid Lee-vai you wouldn't expect people to randomly start calling you Dah-veed Leh-vy. It's just not your name.

Angela Merkel

Angela Merkel is usually said with a hard G, isn't it?

Epstein's name was NEVER pronounced EpSHTEIN. @Autumn2019

Are you being goady or do you genuinely not understand this? It's not how he said his name. It's not how anyone pronounces his name. IT'S NOT HIS NAME.

@Duchessmustard.

Is that right..okay then. I wasn't been goady at all. Tbh i haven't heard Epstein saying his name and have only heard his name in the media. I didn't even know who he was until his scandal. So i don't really know how he prounounced his name tbf. I suspect most people haven't heard him pronouncing his own name and are only used to hearing how it is pronounced in the media. But if you say Epshtein is not how he pronounces his name and you are sure that he pronounces it Epsteen then i will take your word for it.

I totally noticed this in the debate, it was very obvious, and I assumed it was Corbyn trying to say 'look how much I love Jewish people with my efforts to pronounce their names properly' and rolled my eyes.

However, thinking about it, I didn't even think about the fact that Epstein was even Jewish until Corbyn said the name like that......

I also thought that Corbyn jumping straight in to say how sorry he was for the victims was just disingenuous lip service as well, because he knows that's what everyone was slating Andrew for. As far as I know, Jeremy Corbyn is in favour of the legalisation of prostitution so men like Epstein would be able to purchase women for abuse whenever they wanted and perfectly legitimately.

The man is dead, Autumn. But during his life, he had plenty of chances to introduce himself and to correct pronunciations. His friends and acquaintances knew how to say his name. It is a fact how he pronounced his name, just as it is a fact that his first name was Jeffrey.

Well, he's dead, so I don't think he pronounces it any particular way now.

But everyone, including newsreaders, politicians, and anyone else you will hear saying his name (or for that matter, the name of Brian Epstein, for example) pronounces it CORRECTLY.

And not, like Jeremy Corbyn did, in a completely exaggerated 'Jewified' bullshit way as yet another totally accidental event in the life of the most unlucky anti-racist of all time, the man who time and time and time again, finds himself accidentally laying wreaths to mourn the lives of terrorists who murdered innocent Jews, celebrating grossly antisemitic murals, cosying up to Holocaust deniers such as Paul Eisen, Stephen Sizer, praising blood libel promoters like Raed Salah, calling murderous Jew-haters his 'friends', saying that British Jews can't 'understand English irony despite living here all their lives', calling Jewish MPs 'the honourable member for Tel Aviv', embracing people who call for the death of Jews, writing hugely praising forewords for books that promote Holocaust denial and conspiracy theories about Jewish 'bankers', and so many more terribly unfortunate incidents that just seem to trip him up time, and time, and time, and time... again. What an unfortunate anti-racist he is.

Also to a PP the fact that he is American doesnt take away the fact that he is jewish and his name should be pronounced whichever way he would have it not how the media want ofcourse

HE IS DEAD AND EVERYONE IN THE WHOLE BLOODY WORLD KNOWS THAT HIS NAME WAS EPSTEIN.

Also to a PP the fact that he is American doesnt take away the fact that he is jewish and his name should be pronounced whichever way he would have it not how the media want ofcourse

Look, I get you're trying to be very tolerant here, but there is no "jewish" way of pronouncing names that over-rides all other rules.

He was an American man, of distant German heritage, who probably didn't speak a single word of German, with a German-looking surname. He pronounced his name in a very English way.

Corbyn pronounced this American's name as if he were German, and David Baddiel says that drew attention to Epstein's Jewish heritage.

You seem to know more about him than i do, so i will take your word for it.

Oh i have just seen my own post talking about him as if he was alive!! " how he pronounces his name" Should be "pronounced his name" obviously. I shouldn't try multi-tasking.

Is this different from pronouncing Chukah Umunna as Um-mu-nah! on the basis that that's how it might have been pronounced in Nigeria. This wouldn't in my view be acceptable, unless Chukah did it himself. It is a form of othering....

As a PP said way back, stuff like this utterly trivialises any legitimate concerns.

I do not believe Corbyn is anti-semitic, based on his entire professional record and voting history, it makes no sense. There are a couple of legitimate concerns about his actions which are often raised surrounded by guff like this which enables some to utterly dismiss the lot. Corbyn has commented on those few legitimate concerns and to me his comments seem plausible, he should have taken more care in those situations but he’s not the first politician to make such mistakes. I doubt he’ll be the last (certainly if Johnson stays in leadership). Corbyn is not perfect, but my thoughts on the matter are summarised pretty well here:
www.patheos.com/blogs/writingfromtheedge/2019/11/as-a-british-jew-im-not-fearful-of-a-corbyn-government-but-im-horrified-at-how-antisemitism-is-being-used-against-him/

I will await the results of the EHRC investigation, and of course if it finds that he is anti-semitic he should be removed, same with anyone else in the party. But we shouldn’t forget the findings of the Select Committee already on record which were that there is “no reliable, empirical evidence to support the notion that there is a higher prevalence of antisemitic attitudes within the Labour Party than any other political party”. That finding is being thoroughly ignored.

We have no idea why he pronounced it that way. He may have friends with similar surnames who pronounce it that way - I have relatives who do. It’s my default pronunciation of -Stein unless I know they’re American, where i know it’s usually -Steen but I sometimes still make the error.

One things for sure, this is a handy way for the media to distract from the release of the Labour manifesto today...