Unplanned - Abortion Film **Trigger Warning** Title edited by MNHQ sensitive content*

[Mum2386]

Hi,
Last night I watched a film called Unplanned, which is based on a true story of a lady working within an abortion clinic called ‘Planned Parenthood’. The film itself brought me to tears on many occasions and it’s made me feel very uncomfortable surrounding abortion. I had an unplanned pregnancy with my third child but knew abortion wasn’t an option for me. I am quite shocked by the amount of abortions that still take place within our society. Does anyone else feel this way? I know we all have different views but i just wondered what other people’s thoughts were on this very sensitive topic.

bbgxd

I saw that too. What an absolutely beautiful woman she is.

Fire carrier- can you give details of the late abortions you are talking about? How many of them were of babies with conditions incompatible with life, for example?

And the adults who survived abortion- tell us more about them.

Why do you assume no-one else knows? That's hugely arrogant tbh, to assume that only those who agree with you are informed.

Until the embryo/foetus is a sentient, pain feeling being it is in no way the same as street children (odd comparison by the way) or an abused child. It is a collection of cells, that may be starting to represent the form it will eventually take, and is entirely dependent on its host. The host's body and life, to an extent, is at risk by hosting said cells and as such they get to make the call.

Unless you genuinely are saying that the potential life takes precedent over the living, breathing, speaking one? Cause I genuinely don't understand that viewpoint.

Thing is Firecarrier, you can go into the blood and gore and details all you like but it won't change anyone's opinion. I have a beautiful baby and I miscarried a much wanted baby at 11 weeks. I understand the technicalities of abortion. The thought of late term abortions makes me cry. But none of that overrides my firm belief that a woman has autonomy over her body and that forcing a woman to continue an unwanted pregnancy is abuse.

I’m not personally against abortion at any legal stage or for any reason so long as the woman feels it is the best choice for her at the time, however I did clearly state that I can understand why some people might feel uncomfortable with later stage abortions where babies at the same stage have been born and survived. I can see there is a potential ethical debate around late term abortions. However I cannot understand how anybody could be against an earlier abortion (before 21 weeks) when we know a foetus is unviable before this point, and especially in the very early stages of pregnancy (80% of abortions take place under 10 weeks) when the foetus isn’t even recognisable as human.

Also, will those who are anti-abortion/ pro-life please answer my question regarding the disposal of embryos from the laboratories of fertility clinics. Are you against IVF and other procedures which require the creation of surplus embryos and do you see a difference in the disposal of these embryos vs an early abortion? What, if anything, is the difference between disposing of an embryo that’s been taken out of a freezer in a lab and disposing of an embryo that’s been taken out of a womb?

You’re wrong though, a sperm or egg on its own isn’t a life, a sperm and egg once conjoined is the beginning of a life, you can’t compare them both.

This is wrong. There are many times both cells join and a baby isn’t born. Either the zygote doesn’t attach itself to the uterus, it attaches itself to the Fallopian tube and then needs removing or she simply has a miscarriage.

3 options where life isn’t viable

Soubriquet

How has an adult survived abortion? hmmhmm

Either they were aborted and therefore deceased, or they were induced/given a c-section/early spontaneous labour and the baby was given intensive care and survived.

There is no middle ground

Do a bit of reading, it's not difficult.

I am always pro choice. I always have been. Women have a right to make a decision about their bodies.

However. I wouldn't go through with it myself. Now I've had my DS... I just couldn't.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the cut off point either. I think it's quite late, like 20 weeks or something? It's extremely disturbing that that foetus is pretty much fully formed and functioning.

But I will always, always be pro choice.

FACT: viable (foetuses) are aborted

Yes, as neonatal science moves forward we are now able to save some foetuses born prematurely that if they had been removed from the womb via induced abortion instead of preterm labor would be deliberately killed. It is a small number, 1%, and even then chances of survival are slim. But, yes, several thousand could have survived if given medical intervention.

The Guttmacher Institute of Planned Parenthood is the known expert of tracking reasons for abortion. A recent study of their focused on abortion after 20 weeks of gestation and similarly concluded that women seeking late-term abortions were not doing so for reasons of fetal anomaly or life endangerment. The study further concluded that late-term abortion seekers were younger and more likely to be unemployed than those seeking earlier abortions. It is estimated that about 1% of all abortions in the United States are performed after 20 weeks, or approximately 10 000 to 15 000 annually.
Foster DG, Kimport K. Who seeks abortions at or after 20 weeks? Perspect Sex Reprod Health. 2013;45(4):210–218. doi:10.1363/4521013. [PubMed] [Google Scholar]

BertrandRussell

And the adults who survived abortion- tell us more about them.

My aren't you coy

Oh believe me Fireball, if I thought your motive was to educate I’d say crack on.

Except it isn’t. Don’t be disingenuous.

I’m not seeing anything to disabuse me of the notion that forced-birthers are breathtaking in their arrogance.

I'm not entirely comfortable with the cut off point either. I think it's quite late, like 20 weeks or something? It's extremely disturbing that that foetus is pretty much fully formed and functioning

The cut off point is 24 weeks. I think it is important not to reduce this in part due to the fact that several conditions not compatible with life can be diagnosed at the 20 week scan.

@Soubriquet

“How has an adult survived abortion? hmmhmm

Either they were aborted and therefore deceased, or they were induced/given a c-section/early spontaneous labour and the baby was given intensive care and survived.

There is no middle ground”

If I may shed some light on this. There are abortion survivors. But it’s sort of like execution survivors. You know, if you’re being hanged and the rope breaks, you are let free. So it’s more a failed abortion that they have survived. In a late term abortion the procedure is to inject the fetus with poison, and then induce labor to expel the dead feotus. The labor is induced the exact same way as induced labor of live babies, so these women are actually going through childbirth albeit with a small preterm fetus. So the labor induction chemicals are perfectly non toxic. What happens is some foetuses survive the poison injection and so are born alive. At that point the law gives the fetus human rights, so it is now a baby and requires that medical intervention be given to save his/her life.

I know what is entailed in all stages of abortion. Still fully support a woman’s right in any circumstances, at any stage to choose to have one if that is a decision made of her own free will.
No amount of videos, placards or platitudes will change my mind.

Saucery

I know what is entailed in all stages of abortion. Still fully support a woman’s right in any circumstances, at any stage to choose to have one if that is a decision made of her own free will.
No amount of videos, placards or platitudes will change my mind.

In that case then you are making a truly informed decision in which 'side' you fall. Ok then, not so for many. They stick there fingers in there ears and screw their eyes up tight while spouting unscientific emotive language while accusing the opposing 'side' of the very same.

@BarrenFieldofFucks
Until the embryo/foetus is a sentient, pain feeling being...

Since you associate sentience with feeling pain, you might be interested to know that fetal surgeons administer Anesthesia to the fetus from as early as 15weeks of age, most by 18 weeks and all by 20 weeks because the fetus can feel pain?

Sources
Adzick NS, Prospects for fetal surgery, Early Human Development 89, 881, 2013.

Mayorga-Buiza MJ et al., Management of fetal pain during invasive fetal procedures. Lessons learned from a sentinel event, European Journal of Anaesthesiology 31, 88, 2014.

Brusseau R and Bulich LA, Anesthesia for fetal intervention, in Essential Clinical Anesthesia, Charles Vacanti, Pankaj Sikka, Richard Urman, Mark Dershwitz, B. Scott Segal, Eds., Cambridge University Press, NY; July 2011; 772-776.

Sekulic S et al., Appearance of fetal pain could be associated with maturation of the mesodiencephalic structures. J Pain Res. 9, 1031, 2016

Adzick NS et al., A Randomized Trial of Prenatal versus Postnatal Repair of Myelomeningocele, N Engl J Med 364, 993, 2011 (from the Informed Consent section of the supplementary Protocol to the paper).

the difficulty with this debate is that for those who think it is a moral issue, it is then not just up to the person concerned. If you believe all life is sacred and that we should be protecting the defenceless, the argument that says believe what you like and leave me to believe what I like is akin to saying, you do not have to commit murder of you do not want to but I chose to and that is none of your business.
I believe that life is sacred and yet I also accept that not everyone thinks that and there might need to be some compromise. I will never ever accept that it is okay in a so called civilised society to end the life of a fully formed healthy foetus just because it is inconvenient. For all those asking who will adopt all the unwanted babies, there are queues of infertile couples wanting babies. It is older children who are hard to find adoptive families for. I am not pretending it is simple but I think if people honestly understood the procedures involved to abort a fully formed foetus, they would think twice about their beliefs. There is a reason why not many medical professionals will get involved with late abortions.
I also think there are lots of comments made about prolifers not doing anything to make life better for women struggling with a pregnancy they cannot afford/ cope with but many of the people I know who are really passionate about this, do get involved with charities who offer practical/ emotional and financial support to woman, whether they have the baby or abort.

@JacquesHammer
The cut off point is 24 weeks. I think it is important not to reduce this in part due to the fact that several conditions not compatible with life can be diagnosed at the 20 week scan.

The cut off point for abortions by choice for any reason actually varies by US State. However, it is important to point out that in every State regardless of cut off (some are as early as 8 was) there is always an exception for fetal anomalies that allows abortion up to birth and after birth palliative care. So moving a 24 week cut off in a US State does not impact any woman needing an abortion due to fetal anomalies. (It’s the same with if the pregnancy endangers her life or a primary physical or mental function)

I'm pro choice but I have to say that it really annoys me when people say that at 8 weeks the foetus is 'just a cluster of cells'. It's just not true. And I think it's disingenuous to say otherwise.

Nobody has the right to tell someone they can't have an abortion and no woman should be forced to have a child they don't want. But people also should not be trying to minimise the situation.

8 week fetus

@Moomin8

Agree with everything you said. When people are dishonest about developmental stages, particularly of later foetuses it really annoys me. It makes it look as if you're not even convinced yourself rather than just admitting that foetuses are more than just cells.

But this mainly applies for second trimester for me as an 8 weekend isn't really visible to the naked eye.

For all those asking who will adopt all the unwanted babies, there are queues of infertile couples wanting babies. It is older children who are hard to find adoptive families for.

This sunshine and rainbows myths again.

There are a lot if infertile couples yes. Most of those couples go for IVF. Some even choose surrogacy. Some are deemed unfit(rightly or wrongly)to adopt. Even so, the number of people willing to adopt is much less than the number of kids in care, including babies and really young children(up to 3). How do you think the system would cope with if all the abortions that are happening currently will result in a baby? Tens of thousands of them.

And there's a certain sense of callousness in the way you refer to the older children in the system. Sorry kids,no one wants you because we have all this sudden influx of shiny new babies. It's not a fucking animal centre.

Moomin- how big is the embryo in your cute picture?

The mental gymnastics on this thread is mind boggling.

I’m not pro abortion (I doubt anyone is), it’s a horrible, horrible thing. BUT I’m lucky enough that I’ve never been in such a difficult situation as to have to consider one. Women’s rights means access to abortion services, so it’s a necessary evil in my opinion. Perhaps we need better access to contraception and better education on the subject of contraception.