Male view on modern feminism

[aronroche]

I was having a discussion with a friend on what i see as the biggest issues with feminism and i would like a general idea on where women stood in relation to my views.

Firstly I have an issue with the term "rape culture" as I do not believe one exists in modern westernised countries. I understand this term to mean that there is somewhat of an acceptance of rape. I believe that 99 percent of males see rape the same way as women do. An absolute disgusting crime. While it is obviously different in other countries across the world, men in westernized countries do care about the welfare of women and would see a rapist as the lowest of the low.

The second issue I have with feminism is the term white male privalage. I understand women go through hardships I will never understand as a man but that does not mean that males do not have issues that women do not understand. I do not feel I have any advantage in society as a whole simply because im male.

Thirdly I disagree with the idea that a man is completely at fault if he has sex with a girl who is very drunk. Of course if a women is in such a drunken state that she is not conscious or lucid that is rape however if she is willing and knows exactly what she is doing that is on her regardless of how drunk she is. I would like to clarify that when I say this i mean completely willing in that she is not pressured and if she changes her mind the man has to accept her decision.

To finish id like to make clear that I do respect women and support women and the feminist movement as a whole. Im asking these questions not because I see womens issues as bullshit but because id better like to understand other views to my own

Also I note OP claims he thinks that rape is an abhorrent crime bit also that porn is fine.

So he's fine with rape if it's being filmed for men to get off on. Because a lot of porn is not truly consensual and you can't tell from watching it what is and what isn't.

He understands that he has advantages being a male but he doesn't like that being articulated.

As someone else said, if you respected women you would listen.

You think you understand but you don't. That's fine, unless you'd explored the topic there's no real reason why you would. But don't come here and tell women they are wrong. Your reasoning is knee jerk, shallow and simplistic and it really shows.

“the same way a women does not know how often a man changes the head on his razor. i dont see how that is sexist“
I do not know how often men change the heads on their razors. So I would not then say that because they only change them once every 6 months it can’t be a significant outlay.

Biancadelrioisback A couple of weeks ago my sister had a flooring guy round to measure up and give a quote. He literally wouldn’t talk to her!!! He wanted to wait until her husband was home. She even tried to explain that her husband spends the week in London so wouldn’t be home until the weekend.... he didn’t care, he would come out on a Sunday. Needless to say they did not ask him to come back.

@isabellerossignol

Im not saying rape and sexual miscondudt dosnt happen. Of course it does. I just feel the use of the word culture makes it seem like its common place and i do not believe that that is the case. I know that guys cant sometimes not take the hint that a girl isnt interested in a bar for example but generally guys leave the girl alone and do not try force themselves to a point where i feel its sexual assault. Im in my mid twenties and i understand that men were a lot worse historically but i think that attitude has largely changed.

On the conviction rate for rape theyre have been 2 well known cases involving athletes recently. The first was convicted and sent to jail for a few years and it ruines his career when it came out after the fact that the girl was lying. the second was an international player who a 12 out of 12 members of the jury found not guilty but still cannot find a team because of his assumed guilt. If you do not believe in the justice sytem then there is point in having a trial.

I completly agree that a genuine rape victim suffers hugely but i think that victims justice when there is evidence for is is hugely important to men and women alike. I appreciate the reply. My post wasnt made to belittle womens issues at all and I was genuinley looking for a view on how women generally thought about them.

No-one is 'found innocent' of any crime. Stop saying that. It's universally wrong.

Rape is effectively legal in this country now. You could find out why by doing a bit of reading.

How do you know all this stuff? You have women literally telling you you're talking rubbish but you still insist you're right.

That is what we call male entitlement.

i have faith in the justice system.

This is your male privilege at play.

As a woman who has been through several sexual assaults, who has friends that have been sexually assaulted, raped, suffered child abuse etc I have absolutely no faith in the justice system.

You make valid points but males aren’t allowed a
voice on mumsnet. Males are always wrong

Op when you get a taxi on your own have you ever pretended to phone someone so the driver knows there's someone expecting you at your destination? Have you sat there worrying because you're in a car with a man you don't know?

Do you pick up on the blatant misogyny and sexism that exists everywhere - on TV, in books, papers and magazines?

How do you feel about the way the world reports in female politicians for example?

I do believe that men can be feminists. My DH is a prime example. He doesn't just think about the big stuff such as rape culture....he understands the little things, the insidious things that put women at a disadvantage and often in vulnerable situations.

A man got off a rape charge for literally using the "I tripped and fell into her" excuse!

There is no justice.

@isabellerossignol i dont see any issues with porn as long as its consensual which alot of it is. You cant say that because someone watches porn they think anything less of rape

The use of the word culture makes it seem like it's commonplace because it bloody well is!

Just because it doesn't happen to you, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The vast majority of violence outside a relationship setting happens to men but as a woman I'm not denying it happens.

OP how do you feel about a woman's choice of underwear being discussed as part of a rape trial? How is that fair?

Irony highlight of the morning, a man mansplaining mansplaining.

i dont see any issues with porn as long as its consensual which alot of it is.

Jesus Christ you’re ignorant.

If you have kids and you're out on your own do you get asked who is looking after them? My DH never gets asked this but I get asked every fucking time.

@isabellerossignol i dont see any issues with porn as long as its consensual which alot of it is. You cant say that because someone watches porn they think anything less of rape

I can say it, I just did.

You even said yourself that 'a lot' of porn is consensual. You acknowledge that not all of it is. Therefore if you watch it, you are fine with the fact that you may be watching a rape. Yet you don't condone rape? Don't you see how illogical that is?

Just because you don't like the term White male privilege and it makes you uncomfortable doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It also doesn't mean that everything is handed to you on a plate. What it does mean is that if you had the same life circumstances and you were not white and/or not male that it would be more difficult for you to get to the same place as you have now.

I accept as a white female I have an advantage over other non-white women. It doesn't mean every thing comes easy to me but it means it is likely to come easier than if I wasn't white.
Being middle class, rich, coming from a stable background with supportive parents, being naturally intelligent, attractive, able bodied, having no learning difficulties etc. Put you at an advantage but if compare 1000 black females to 1000 white men all with all those advantages the white men would have a more 'successful' career on average.

If you are genuinely interested, go away and do some further reading. It's lazy to expect us to explain it to you and you just keep telling everyone why they are wrong. It's not our job to instruct you.

What you believe does not change reality for women.

If you are in your mid twenties you are still young and you are clearly naive, at best or a GF at worst.

Have you any plans to read the books that have been recommended?

OP if you want to see how insidious rape culture is, head over to the relationship board. There you will read loads of posts from women who are pressured, manipulated, sometimes downright forced, to have sex with 'loving' partners because if they don't their partner will leave/find someone else/make their life a misery. You will find women who have woken up to their partners sexually assaulting / raping them. You will find women posting for help after they have consented to sex but their partners have then upset/ hurt/injured them by suddenly introducing another sex act they weren't prepared for / didn't want. These are all in 'normal' relationships; invariably these women don't even see their experience as assault or rape because it is so ingrained that women submit to men's pleasure. Have you ever been blackmailed or guilt tripped into sex? Said yes even when you don't want to because you're afraid of what might happen if you say no? Had to deal with discomfort/ injury from sexual acts that brought you no pleasure and instead will cause humiliation as you post anonymously on an online forum about whether you need medical advice? Have any of these things been something you've had to deal with on a regular basis? Again, this shit happens all the time. I hugely disagree that most men don't rape. Strikes me that many of them do, but because they aren't pouncing on strangers in a dark alley it's seen as ok. This is rape culture.

Porn is a HUGE part of the problem - not only are the women involved subject to abuse and exploitation but consequent attitudes to sex are appalling - anal sex as a given (there have been cases of even teenage girls left permanently injured by this trend), unsafe sexual practices carried out by amateurs (women strangled/beaten to death is just "sex gone wrong" in the courts), the prioritisation of male pleasure over female's (I wonder how many of your male friends have ever confessed they never/rarely orgasm or secretly dislike sex because it hurts and they don't want to lose their partners so they don't say anything?).

If you genuinely support women you need to open your eyes. This is the shit we deal with everyday. Every week 2 women die at the hands of violent partners. Rape convictions are at an all time low - hell, if I were ever raped there's no way I'd report it. For what? General disbelief and derision? To be labelled a psycho slag? No thanks. Of course you have faith in the courts - you're a white male. Think about it. The whole system is set up for you. Don't be so blind and ignorant.

Firstly I have an issue with the term "rape culture" as I do not believe one exists in modern westernised countries.

20% of women have been sexually assaulted
90% of rapes are committed by someone you know
Porn often involves coercion and therefore rape
Prostitution often involves coercion and therefore rape
Nagging until you get sex is coercion and therefore rape
Sulking about no sex until you get it is coercion and therefore rape
If someone is too drunk to consent then it is rape
If someone is asleep and can't consent then it is rape

And your purpose in starting this thread was?

Like a PP said on page one, I strangely find myself not giving a fuck what a man who obviously doesn't like women very much thinks of feminism.

In fact I'd go as far as to say men like you remind me how very much we need feminism.