Male view on modern feminism

[aronroche]

I was having a discussion with a friend on what i see as the biggest issues with feminism and i would like a general idea on where women stood in relation to my views.

Firstly I have an issue with the term "rape culture" as I do not believe one exists in modern westernised countries. I understand this term to mean that there is somewhat of an acceptance of rape. I believe that 99 percent of males see rape the same way as women do. An absolute disgusting crime. While it is obviously different in other countries across the world, men in westernized countries do care about the welfare of women and would see a rapist as the lowest of the low.

The second issue I have with feminism is the term white male privalage. I understand women go through hardships I will never understand as a man but that does not mean that males do not have issues that women do not understand. I do not feel I have any advantage in society as a whole simply because im male.

Thirdly I disagree with the idea that a man is completely at fault if he has sex with a girl who is very drunk. Of course if a women is in such a drunken state that she is not conscious or lucid that is rape however if she is willing and knows exactly what she is doing that is on her regardless of how drunk she is. I would like to clarify that when I say this i mean completely willing in that she is not pressured and if she changes her mind the man has to accept her decision.

To finish id like to make clear that I do respect women and support women and the feminist movement as a whole. Im asking these questions not because I see womens issues as bullshit but because id better like to understand other views to my own

If you ask a man directly: are you for or against rape, yup, probably 99% of them will say that it disgusts them.

But then watch a man make a sexually demeaning joke in front of male and female colleagues, and then scold the women who dare pull him up on it for not having a sense of humour; it's only banter.

Read the social media posts that erupt when a woman takes a feminist stand. See how many of them tell her she deserves to be raped for what she's said.

Read some of the social media posts after the high profile rape cases we've had recently - Paddy Jackson, Stuart Olding, Alex Hepburn. And then read the widely published Whatsapp messages of those men. Read the reports on the Ulster rugby trial that show you exactly what men can do to women and still be found not guilty of rape - leave them crying, bruise them, make them bleed. And then come back here and tell me that rape culture doesn't exist.

Thank you to PP who mentioned Invisible Women. I've requested it from the library.

OP I saw a false accusation of rape as a trainee solicitor. The young woman involved was very troubled. Everyone said how unusual it was.

The conviction rates for rape are appallingly low. We live in a culture where the lying perpetrators are more likely to be believed than the victim.

I've talked to DH about white male privilege. He doesn't like the idea because it's a hard thing to take when you see yourself as a good person. But he accepted it.

Instead of lecturing, maybe take this as a chance to educate yourself.

OP- this is my list of things that men can do to support feminism. I’d love your views.
1.Take full responsibility for their fair share of domestic work and childcare.

1. Challenge sexist/ misogynist/violent talk and behaviour every time they see it and wherever they see it
2. Stop using prostitutes.
3. Challenge sexist work practices-for example making sure that any panel, board or committee they are on at least represents the sex balance of the organization - if necessary refusing to go on it if it isn't.
4. Stop watching porn.
5. Stop buying and playing sexist video games, and films that don't pass the Bedschel test.
6. Watch Nanette weekly to keep their minds focussed.
7. Think about how they parent their boys, and remember that they are the next generation of men. And that they are the man their children will learn about relationships from.

9) Make sure that they acknowledge, and let their children see them acknowledge, the contribution their wife or partner makes to the family. This is particularly important when she is a SAHP.

(7 is not entirely serious)

If he does any reading of outside sources on the back of this thread I will ask the Duke of Edinburgh out to lunch at Pret.

I didn't get past your first paragraph. I don't give a shit about your views

@MinecraftMother The term mansplation is a ridiculous one. It basically means that I have no say or have and opinion on anything that affects women because Im a male. If a woman gave a point of view and it was disregarded because i disagreed with it would be seen as completely ignorant

@BertrandRussell

1.compleltey agree

1. i would step in i felt a woman was being talked to violently
2. dont use them but i see no issue if a woman is willingly wanting to have sex with a man for money. if shes happy to do it she can do what she want her body
3. if i seen a man being mysogynistic to a woman in work id feel its up to her to report it nd if she did id suport her
4. dont see any issue with porn
5. watching movies and playing games dosnt make me anymore sexist than a violent movie makes me violent
6. Watch Nanette weekly to keep their minds focussed.
7. i was raised right and would give the same values to my kids

No mansplaining refers to men believing that whatever they believe is the objective truth, and then they must inform us poor silly wimmen - even on issues they have no knowledge or experience of. Like the man who said women should only use 5 tampons per period, so easy like, he's solved period poverty!

Yep. Thought so. Part of the problem not part of the solution .

Moving on.....

Gawd - the menz have arrived to explain important issues to our lady brains.

Sanctimonious much.

Im unaware of conviction statistics for rape. If someone is found innocent of rape i accept it as I feel if youve raped a women a jury will find you guilty. you cannot assume guilt. Id like to think that the justice system works and if given the evidence someone who has done something in the wrong is punished for it. I do believe that women sometimes do accuse men in the wrong which damages a man for life.

I understand that i do have advantages being a white male but i do not like the term white male privilage because it implies Im a part of a sexist system merely because im white man. I undertstand that women go through things I will never understand but also in turn theres advantages to being a white female. Society expects men to be strong mentally, to just get on with things and to be the bread winner in a family. If in a family there was a stay at home husband and his wife was working hed be thought less of.

im not lecturing im giving my point of view and in turn with feedback want to understand womens issues more

Mate if you respected women you would listen to us.

Ugh
OP you are a study in male privilege

You know what you know and you won’t listen and yet you do so under the veneer of ‘but I’m totally with you ladies’

Porn is absolutely ok, women rarely get raped, society treats us all equally, you are a fabulous new man.

It’s all good ladies.

Got news for you sunshine... you may want to listen.

Your opinion isn’t as important to us as it is to you.

You should take some time to chew that over, I’m sure your mind is blown.

OP, as I thought. I explained rape culture to you, you said it didn't exist. You have faith in the justice system, women do not. You say a man's life is ruined if he is accused of sexual misconduct, but I can't see any evidence for this. The public are hugely sympathetic to men who have been accused of sex crimes. Much moreso than to their victims, even when there is a guilty verdict. You've just proved the point yourself.

@Peachesandcream14 mansplaining is a term used to disregard a guys opinion and disregard it without giving it thought and i cant have any opinion on women because im a guy. Where do i think women are silly. Of course men arnt going to know about how many tampons women use on their period in the same way a women does not know how often a man changes the head on his razor. i dont see how that is sexist

You're conveniently sidestepping and ignoring all the issues people are raising.

Is this just a wind-up? Has someone taken all the ignorant cliches about how men view feminism and put them all down in one place to get a reaction?

For a start you don't actually seem to understand what the term rape culture actually means.

2. Challenge sexist/ misogynist/violent talk and behaviour every time they see it and wherever they see it
2. i would step in i felt a woman was being talked to violently

But the big point you seem to be missing is that it isn't just about violence, it is also about the 'Sarah (only female in the room) can take the minutes'/ 'phowar I'd hit that' attitude that is still insidious in our daily lives. Google 'the everyday sexism project' if you want to see hundreds and hundreds of pages of examples.

You carefully seem to be missing out anything related to that in your OP or your responses. Yes most men are against violence, but are more than happy to participate in misogynistic banter, or everyday sexism

Sorry but the justice system is failing women who were raped. It's so bad a women's organisation are considering suing the CPS:
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/cps-could-face-legal-action-041918577.html

For this woman even recording her own rape wasn't enough evidence:
<a class="break-all" href="http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/young-woman-who-recorded-herself-being-raped-by-her-ex-slams-his-acquittal/?fbclid=IwAR0wquQcg11GhrXG2mR0zdeqXrLsW6SaagR_zcTVE4pB5t90sK3At9fvQQs" target="_blank">http://go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/young-woman-who-recorded-herself-being-raped-by-her-ex-slams-his-acquittal/?fbclid=IwAR0wquQcg11GhrXG2mR0zdeqXrLsW6SaagR_zcTVE4pB5t90sK3At9fvQQs

Suggest you read the John Worboys case to get a sense of how men are believed over women many, many times before any kind of justice can be achieved (and he was still going to get parole until the public outcry!)

You came here to tell us a male view on modern feminism 🙄

And still telling us we're wrong! Ok.

White male privilege exists ... Just look around you, look at society - it's as plain as day.

Your views in rape and rape convictions are misinformed, naive and dangerous.

How many times have you walked into a car showroom only for the sales staff to go straight up to your partner and all but ignore you?
How many times has a door to door salesman asked if your partner is home? How many times have you tried to buy something like a door or kitchen worktops only for the sales assistant to suggest you come back with your partner? How many times have you sat down for a team meeting and been told to go and make the coffees?

There was some interesting research recently where groups of women were asked independently what precautions they take in day to day life to keep safe. I was at a presentation of this with my male coworkers and their jaws dropped. So many women won't leave the house without knowing they have something sharp in their handbag. Many keep their keys on their person incase their bags are snatched so they still have a means of protection. Many will walk a less direct route to get somewhere to avoid walking across a bridge or down a dark street. Loads, and I mean loads, refuse to wear clothes they like on a night out on the off chance they are raped and everyone blames them because of how they are dressed. Personally I wear skin tight jeans because they are difficult to get off, so it's a small way I feel a bit more protected.

But again, tell me how hard it is being a man?

OP: can’t work out if you’ve come here to test how “feminist” you are or if you are trying to understand/better educate yourself.

You’re not coming across particularly “feminist”. That’s great that you’d step in if a woman was being talked to violently. Why does it have to be violent? What if your male boss or pervy uncle always rested his hand on a female colleagues / family members lower back? It’s not quite the butt so cleverly not black and white, but it’s FUCKING HORRIBLE. And it happens.

When I was 16, I worked in a bakery. One of the (middle aged) male bakers would regularly make comments about how I looked (very subtle “you look lovely this morning”) and how he’d do anything to be twenty years younger (suggestively) and encouraged the male staff who were about my age if they’d take me out and give him the details. Nothing violent about any of that, but again, FUCKING HORRIBLE. I was very young and very terrified. And very lucky that I had braver colleagues to put him in his place and eventually give me the courage to bring it to the managers attention. Colleagues of BOTH genders.

The #metoo movement was so powerful because it made women talk about their experiences and how often this happens. And it empowered us to tell our male colleagues and pervy uncles if we are uncomfortable.

We need men who a) know these things make us uncomfortable, b) challenge other men that don’t know, and c) offer us support and strength to fight this behaviour. So your offer to say something when it is violent is really hollow. (I’d have thought that would be the least you would do in ANY situation?!)

If you’ve come here to educate yourself, try and research WHY BertandRussell has made some of those suggestions. Prostitution and human trafficking might be a good place to start.