If you are pro choice...

[Doubledoubledenim]

Name changed for this

I really want to ask some questions for anyone happy to answer about feelings on abortion. I don’t feel like its an approachable subject I can talk about IRL as everyone I know is venomously pro choice and if I start to put forward a view which isn’t the same as theirs they get really quite aggressive and defensive.

So, if you are pro choice does that include late term abortions or would you feel differently about one at 6 weeks to one at 24 weeks? Also a lot of people say it’s the woman’s body so her choice - would that reason still stand for later abortions or would you think it would need to be a serious medical reason for baby/mum to justify this? Or does pro choice mean pro choice for you meaning any reason and any time within the legal limit is ok.

I hope I’ve worded this in a completely inoffensive way as I really don’t want to upset anyone it might affect.

Pro life here. Unless necessity.. I don’t think your friends decision at 20 weeks was necessary. I don’t think it should be this open seeing how many women have unprotected sex with people they don’t intent to stay with and so I don’t classify it as a “necessary evil”. I don’t think inconvenience justifies ending a life.

My opinion isn’t at all popular on Mum sent. Won’t be arguing it out. But happy to discuss over private messages

Can I ask posters like Outoutout, who support abortion if a woman has been raped but not if she has willingly had sex- how would you police this please?

Exactly this. Does the father have to have been convicted of rape for the abortion to be allowed? Will she have to wait until after the trial?

Every child should be a wanted child, women should not have to suffer unwanted pregnancy
if abortion is not allowed then all men should have vasectomies at puberty so that women don't have to suffer unwanted pregnancy

Those who are against abortion will often make concessions when the pregnancy has occurred as a result of rape or incest
but why would they do this, if they care about the rights of the child why does the child have fewer rights if it was conceived in this way?

of course a foetus at 24 weeks is different to a 6 week one. Noone goes through 6 months of pregnancy to then terminate without damn strong reasons.
If someone has an abortion at 6 weeks and is fine with their decision, then I have no feelings either way. If they felt they needed one at 24 weeks pregnant, id think it was really really sad for them, as thats a huge decision and likely to be fairly traumatic

Llweji yes it’s a real option and it absolutely should be. I agree totally if poster’s are asking for advice or are unsure then obviously it’s okay to give them suggestions or remind them of options. I think that’s the angle most pro-choice people on here are coming from. But I have seen it suggested several times to someone who’s already decided to keep the baby and isn’t asking for advice on that. For someone who’s 11/12 weeks into a wanted pregnancy, all that time to plan and imagine, suggesting termination is just weird and morbid. And also anti-choice. I know you’re right it’s unlikely that someone has read a comment on mumsnet and decided to terminate her wanted pregnancy but why does it even come up?

Suicide is an option but posters don’t just suggest to someone asking for advice cause they’re having a hard time ‘have you thought about ending it all?’

Obviously we want suicide to be de-stigmatised but not to the point where we just go round suggesting it to each other as an option!

I’m sorry that was such a pro-lifey example but it was the best I could think of. I’m not comparing termination to suicide. But for somebody with a wanted pregnancy, that baby feels 100% real to them, I just can’t see how telling them they should abort it is pro-choice.

Also just to clarify, I am 100% pro choice without conditions.

You lost me at 'venomously pro choice' wtf does that mean?

If you don't agree with abortions, don't have one. You don't get to decide/sit in judgment on anyone else. Why would anyone's opinion count more than the pregnant woman's?

outoutout the danger of that too in saying well it’s okay for rape victims but no one else, like I mentioned in another post, I read a study on rape victims who’d been impregnated and how some of them felt societal pressure to abort. I think that pressure comes from both sides of the spectrum. Pro-choice making rape victims the poster children of their campaign, and pro-lifers saying ‘well only rape victims, they’re the only ones with unfortunate enough circumstances’.

How about we make all women responsible for their own bodies and support their choice no matter what. Whether it be a 30 something, stable woman in a relationship who wants to terminate because she’s focusing on her career, or a rape victim who wants to keep their baby. It should be their choice without any form of pressure from society, direct or indirect.

where we just go round suggesting it to each other as an option!

And yet abortion is always an option and it is really important women are aware of this.

I see no issue with suggesting women consider very carefully all options open to them.

I agree it’s important women are aware of their options. And if you get the feeling from a poster that they are young/vulnerable/from traditional background/pregnancy unwanted, then of course it’s appropriate to offer advice. But in the thread I’ve quoted, the OP had decided to leave her partner after he gave her an ultimatum, deciding not to terminate as per his ultimatum. This is not someone who needs reminding of their options, she’d broken up with her partner as she didn’t want to terminate the pregnancy. She kept trying to clarify she had decided to keep the baby and didn’t want advice on that. And PPs kept suggesting termination.

Another very sad thread I read recently that I don’t want to bring up circumstances in case OPs reading this and doesn’t want to be reminded but some of the comments broke my heart for this woman who had come on asking for support about a very hoped-for pregnancy. From supposedly ‘pro choice’ people.

Since we are doing story,let me tell you some too.

16 yo girl gets pregnant(the circumstances of conception are vague,but one would hope it was consensual sex). She found out quite late,but abortion was illegal back then anyways. For months she starved herself so she wouldn't show much. Still went to school,desperately trying to hide. Didn't go home during the holidays. Then two days before Christmas she gave birth ...alone. She refused to look ,touch or hold the baby. She knew it wasn't going home with her. The nurses tried to bring the baby in but she hid under the blankets. Her mum did come to take her home a few days after. The nurses tried to talk her into taking the baby home too. She was absolutely devastated and terrified and told the nurses "if my husband finds out he will shoot us both." They left the baby behind.

For 9 months a 16 yo girl,a child really, had to go through pregnancy and all that it entails, scared and alone and doing her best to hide it. She had to give birth and suffer comments,judgement and derision. She had to leave a baby behind. And she had to keep it a secret for her safety and that of her mother.

As a teen our school organised visits to orphanages with food,toys,clothes etc. If the children wanted to go,they could too. Abortion had been legal for several years by then,but the effects of the long ban were still there. The massive amount of children,the smell,the neglect. The majority had shaved heads to prevent lice. The rocking and humming. The swarming children grabbing at your hand asking "are you my mummy? Did you come to take me home?" "Can I go home with you?". The despair,the sadness. The smell. The overworked and cold workers (turned that way by lack of funds,lack of supplies,lack of space and a neverending number of children. The healthy babies and toddlers that due to the condition developed physical and mental disabilities. The grownups now that are still institutionalised,still with shaved heads, still broken.

Have you ever seen what happens to a baby when it's deprived of care,love,basic needs? When they don't have enough room to start crawling, or simply just move around their cot and develop their muscles?

Are they alive? The ones that haven't killed themselves,died due to neglect and living in the sewers they are. Are they better off for it?

Nah mate, that's the world I don't want to live in.

Fuck that was long. Apologies.

I'm pro choice and it's up the woman what she does with her body.
I don't agree with abortion at 24 weeks as a form of birth control but I don't believe many women actually do that for those reasons so if if it's done then there would be a reason for it.
Those reasons are none of my business.

Sarcasm so so tragic and unnecessary. Thank you for sharing. Just to clarify again as the back and forth here with other pro-choice PPs is making it seem like I’m arguing against pro-choice. I’m not. I’m 100% pro choice. I abhor forced pregnancy and feel strongly all women should be allowed control over their own bodies without conditions.

And in case it wasn't obvious I am pro choice. Which means I support and defend(actively) a woman's right to keep a baby,give it up for adoption or terminate. Keep a baby even when no wants her to, have an abortion even when no one wants her to,because it's her body,her health,her mind,her life.

Absolutely 100% pro-choice.

Abortion should be legal, safe and freely available to all women, at any point in pregnancy.

What any of us, as individuals, would or wouldn't do ourselves has no bearing. We need to trust women to know what's best for themselves and support their decisions.

sarcasm yes I agree whole heartedly!

I feel I am pro-choice. I believe that any woman should have access to safe and legal abortion at any point during pregnancy. What I may or may not be comfortable with for my own body should have no influence on what another woman should be able to decide for her own body. I do believe that the decision should be an informed one regarding the process and that access to counselling should be available/suggested.

I would much rather an unwanted child was never born than be born into a situation where they are not wanted. My feelings on this part have strengthened hugely since having my own children and realising just how hard parenting can be with a hugely wanted child.

Yes, in an ideal world there would be very little need for abortion as contraception would be 100% effective with no horrible side effects and there would be no abusive relationships among the myriad of other 'social reasons' for abortion. This would still leave medical reasons and, of course, we don't live in an ideal world!

She kept trying to clarify she had decided to keep the baby and didn’t want advice on that. And PPs kept suggesting termination.

Unfortunately it's the way many MN threads go with people not reading OPs properly, or the FT.
In any case, I don't think it reflects MN in general as pushing towards abortion.

Obviously we want suicide to be de-stigmatised but not to the point where we just go round suggesting it to each other as an option!

But we might euthanasia.

I don’t think it should be this open seeing how many women have unprotected sex with people they don’t intent to stay with

Funnily enough, I suspect there's more men having unprotected sex with women they don't intend to stay with. Or men who claim they want babies, but then dump their partner.

Abortion would not be banned anywhere if men could get pregnant.

I am pro-choice. I am also sure (at this point - things change obviously) that I wouldn't opt for an abortion if I discovered I was pregnant. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

Pro-choice means to me that there is a choice. Whether I would make that choice myself is irrelevant. It is not anyone's place to tell a woman what to do with her body or to force her to be responsible for a child for the next 18 years minimum.

If you don't agree with abortions, don't have one. That's where our own influence should end.

And OP, if you think that calling someone venomous isn't offensive, then no wonder you get nowhere IRL regarding this topic of discussion. I am hoping you ment vehemently...

llweji euthanasia is actually a perfect example for what I’m trying to say! You might be very pro-euthanasia (which I am, I support personal autonomy in all forms) but would actually never suggest it to someone living a healthy fulfilled life but is having problems in some other areas of their life that they’ve come to you for advice on! If euthanasia popped into your head while a friend was telling you eg. her husband had cheated on her while she was getting her appendix out but she’s very hopeful about life and still feeling positive, there would have to be something seriously wrong with you thinking!

.

But the euthanasia conversation might come out if someone is terminally ill and with pain, even if they are not likely to die in the following days.
I can totally imagine some pps saying they'd rather kill themselves despite the OP saying they don't want to.

Anyway, my point was that I don't think MN has an unusual representation of people who'd suggest an abortion or say they'd have one. We're not counting casual acquaintances, who tend to keep counsel to themselves.