If you are pro choice...

[Doubledoubledenim]

Name changed for this

I really want to ask some questions for anyone happy to answer about feelings on abortion. I don’t feel like its an approachable subject I can talk about IRL as everyone I know is venomously pro choice and if I start to put forward a view which isn’t the same as theirs they get really quite aggressive and defensive.

So, if you are pro choice does that include late term abortions or would you feel differently about one at 6 weeks to one at 24 weeks? Also a lot of people say it’s the woman’s body so her choice - would that reason still stand for later abortions or would you think it would need to be a serious medical reason for baby/mum to justify this? Or does pro choice mean pro choice for you meaning any reason and any time within the legal limit is ok.

I hope I’ve worded this in a completely inoffensive way as I really don’t want to upset anyone it might affect.

Once you carry a baby to 30 weeks- it should be a criminal offence to kill that baby

That's just the point - it is a criminal offence to kill such a baby unless for a very few, clearly defined purposes, which is why it disturbs me to see folk advocating late abortion for ANY reason

Many feel that abortionists provide a vital, even lifesaving service for pregnant women, but others don't just want abortion restricted within the law - they don't want it available at all, and they'll use any measures available to achieve this

I just worry about the possible implications of encouraging illegality for the service as a whole

I think once the fetus/baby can live outside of the womb then abortion should only be for medical reasons. I do not agree with no time limit. That, theoretically, could mean a woman at 40 weeks in the early stages of Labour could terminate. Now, I'm aware that happening would be incredibly unlikely but if you make something legal, you must consider all possible scenarios.

I think abortion should be classed as a medical procedure and not have any legal restrictions .
Women and their medical professionals should be the people who make decisions about their bodies.
I have 2 children and having them has made me even more pro choice. They impact your life forever and nobody should take that on unless they are 100% sure about it.

Here's what i don't get about some people who are anti choice (and it is anti choice, not pro life).

The vast majority of anti choice people in the US also seem to be against universal healthcare, against welfare benefits, against maternity pay and maternity rights etc. But then how do they suppose the baby has a full and happy life?

It's the conservative right in America who are anti choice and claim it's because their support life, but is it only life in the womb, because they're all up with guns and refuse gun control because they want the right to shoot people.

It all feels quite hypocritical to me and leaves me concluding that it's about policing women.

I think a lot of ‘pro-choice’ mumsnetters think that means trying to talk a woman in tricky circumstances into having a termination, when she’s already decided to keep the baby. I’ve seen that a lot in here.“

Actually, the usual narrative is “if you’re asking the question that means you have doubts so you should definitely keep the baby. Everything will be fine- you’ll find a way” Really pusses me off.

The vast majority of anti choice people in the US also seem to be against universal healthcare, against welfare benefits, against maternity pay and maternity rights etc

And... in favour of the death penalty...

*Pisses

Oh, and pro-guns.

lola thats quite a big sweeping statement. Not everyone who is pro life is far right trump idealist. There are plenty of people on the left who are not pro choice, and certainly not pro choice up to birth ( i believe the latter applies to the majority). Nor is the opposite true, that the left is some sort of safe haven for womens rights. Quite clearly, as evidenced daily, misogyny is alive and kicking on the left, they just tend to hide it better.

Not really understanding this argument about its better to not give life to an unwanted child. As an unwanted and abused child, id like to state that im very fucking happy to be alive thank you, despite my shitty beginings. Id have not rather been aborted and it would not have been better for me , as people on this thread have insinuated. An abortion may have been better for my mum (who really knows though) but dont lie and make out it would have been better for me.

Lweji I don’t like the implication that I would make that up. Don’t want to be too specific about details of the threads but I’ve seen two threads in the past few weeks were OP’s were being given ultimatums by partners to terminate the pregnancy. These are examples pulled from one of those threads were the poster had made it clear she was choosing to keep the baby and break up with partner and the thread was more looking for support.

I’d think very carefully about continuing this pregnancy.

FGS grow up and take some control over what happens to your body. No, you are NOT ready for a baby, you are far too immature.

I’d get rid of him. I would also think long and hard about having a termination.

I would terminate as a baby doesn’t need this kind of man as a father.

All different posters and it’s not including the ones that were more subtle suggestions.

The other thread was only a day or two before. Poster pregnant with 6th child and was given ultimatum to abort by DH. Littered with posters saying DH was right and she should terminate. That to me is the opposite of pro-choice, especially as both OPs had already been given ultimatums by men. To then side with a man trying to take that woman’s choice away is the most anti-choice thing I can think of.

I appreciate where it’s coming from as I personally would not want to be a single parent to six children and I’m sure not many people would choose that. But choose is the operative word here.

I’ve also seen threads with OPs looking for advice about teenage pregnancy where people talk about ‘marching’ their daughters down to a clinic etc.

I appreciate this isn’t the majority of mnetters but I do think a lot of people here have pro-choice confused. I think it comes from a place of wanting to be blasé about abortion. I can understand that mindset of wanting to take the stigma out of it. But that can turn into an almost pro-abortion agenda.

Lweji
And views single mothers as a drain on society.

Once they've banned abortion in some states are these do-gooders willing to have higher taxes to ensure the child can have medical care if poorly? I doubt it. They'll simply go on the moral outrage at the mum for not getting a high paying job with health insurance and snigger at how anyone could possibly try to raise a child properly in their situation... forgetting that it was their smug self-righteous desire to police women that led to the child being born.

I'm pro choice with caveat, which means I can't possibly be pro choice according to MN, so since I am not pro life either I am seemingly stuck in purgatory.
I think everyone, men and women, have a responsibility to be, well, responsible, and not treat abortion as a form of contraception. Accidents happen and in a decent relationship, or even without one then as far as is possible it would be preferable to go ahead with the pregnancy. However, if it will cause a great deal of hardship then abortion should be considered as an option. I see it as a sort of last resort and obviously the earlier the better. Every case is different and should be judged on its own merits. That's my opinion so I don't know what you would call me.

@Whitefishy

You said you saw it a lot here. and "a lot of ‘pro-choice’ mumsnetters" do it when the mother "has already decided to keep the baby".

They may have stood out for you, but I still dispute your assessment of what is "a lot".

Like with many things, there will be people who will push others one way or another. There are also pps who encourage women in very difficult situations to keep the baby (and even to stay with abusive partners).
I don't think it's an issue with MN, which is what your post implied and that I didn't like because, yes, I don't think it's true.

which means I can't possibly be pro choice according to MN

As with most things, and easy to see after reading this thread, there is no single MN position.

“Every case is different and should be judged on its own merits”

Who does the judging?

I detest the “inconvenience” argument put forward by pro-lifers. It completely minimises what women go through in pregnancy, birth and in raising the child. It’s life-changing, and can even be life threatening. It’s a fucking insult to women to say that they abort due to “inconvenience”.

Yes Llweji you’re prob right that they stand out to me. I’m from NI and for obvious reasons I’ve heard exactly zero comments in RL from people encouraging others to terminate a wanted pregnancy. (I’m not saying it doesn’t happen here! We obviously have a history of forced abortions and adoptions in Ireland, which for the most part we have left behind us but I’m sure there are still teenage girls from traditional families being ‘marched to clinics’ in England for abortions. Along with the people going across to clinics for much wanted terminations. Obviously part of the reason I think laws need to be changed here.) But it’s not something I see in my daily life. So it does seem to me like there’s a lot of it on mumsnet. I can think of four threads off the top of my head from the last 2-3 weeks where multiple posters have been suggesting termination to somebody who isn’t asking.

Maybe this is normal in RL in the rest of the UK and not just a Mumsnet thing? I said it already but I’m not exaggerating when I say I’ve never once heard someone make a comment like that in real life. Even about an unplanned pregnancy. Is this what happens when abortion is de-stigmatised? I’m all for de-stigmatisation but pro-abortion is disturbing to me.

I wasn’t trying to tar all mnetters with the same brush sorry if it came across like that and yes bertrand you’re right, there is also a lot of comments from the other end of the spectrum and from pro-lifers. But as the question was about ‘pro-choice’, that’s what I was focusing on. I put ‘pro-choice’ in inverted commas in my post as I don’t think those people truly are pro-choice.

Pro-choice is exactly that. Supporting the choice of the pregnant woman, whether you agree with it or not.

As someone who is the main carer of a child with sever disabilities caused by a genetic condition I have chosen not to have anymore children. If I did accidentally become pregnant I would terminate, regardless of the child being healthy or not, I just don’t have the capacity to care for anyone else. Especially now we have a benefit system that is completely hostile to anyone with additional care needs. Unless you are independently wealthy being a carer is financial suicide. I’ve not heard any pro-lifers offer to cough up hard cash to support women who will have to care for a child for their entire life. Forcing someone to endure this is barbaric.

What I am sad about is when I was at school a girl in our group had had two terminations. This was put down to her being a slut, who would have sex with any boys hanging about the park. She was treated like dirt and subject to shocking gossip and bullying. It honestly took me 20 years before the penny dropped, she did not hang about the park on her own, she was never seen with a boy. It is so clear to me now she was being abused. That’s why when ever I hear ridiculous stories of women having terminations for whatever petty reasons, I think, yeah, what’s the real story?

You keep debating in circles. The abstinence movement fails because women don't take responsability. If you don't have sex, you cannot get pregnant. Stop pretending that responsability is some mythical state of being which is unattainable. It isn't. It literally requires a woman to do nothing. As NOT have sex. It requires zero effort.

Unbelievable.

Actually, do you know what prevents pregnancy? Men not ejaculating in or near a vagina. 100% of unplanned pregnancies are caused by a man ejaculating, so I’m not sure why you think it’s women who need to take “responsability”.

For most people, not having sex requires a great deal of effort, since most humans have a biological impulse and urge to have sex. It’s utterly unrealistic to expect people not to have sex until they are ready for children.

And you’re completely disregarding the fact that many women who get pregnant didn’t want to have sex with the man who got them pregnant. What about them? Should have worn a chastity belt?

I agree kalinka. Pregnancy is an ‘inconvenience’ to living a normal life! Even with a much wanted baby. Pregnancy is fucking shit and nobody should be forced to go through that who doesn’t want to.

The thing is that where it is an option, it is a real option, and people will mention it. It will probably depend on whether the pp will consider it a possible or likely option for herself. I would only consider it for myself in extreme situations, so I'm not likely to suggest it to other pps, although I may probably ask if they intend to keep the baby. Other women will have other perspectives.

In any case, I don't think anyone has ever been persuaded to have an abortion based on a few MN pps.

Can I ask posters like Outoutout, who support abortion if a woman has been raped but not if she has willingly had sex- how would you police this please?

Pro choice because bringing an unwanted child into the world is a stupid and irresponsible thing to do. As early as possible and within legal limits.

Chaotic lifestyles, addiction. Would they qualify? I would say not.

You’re totally right. Let’s encourage women who are addicted to heroin and homeless to have a baby any time they have sex. (And if you think that someone addicted class A drugs, and living a life of horror that you clearly can’t fathom, is going to make responsible choices, you’re insane).

Like most pro-birthers, you don’t give a crap about the babies. Do you follow through with these beliefs and campaign for more support for homeless, unemployed addicts so they can care for these babies? Or do you also condemn these children when they grow up to be addicts with mental health issues themselves?

Actually, the usual narrative is “if you’re asking the question that means you have doubts so you should definitely keep the baby. Everything will be fine- you’ll find a way” Really pusses me off.

Yes! Along with 'nobody ever regrets a baby', and 'just have the baby and don't let him have contact' when talking about abusive father. Utterly irresponsible.