What age to start a sleep routine?

[Stillmonday]

My baby is 4 months old and we practise safe co sleeping. I've started taking him to bed about 8.30 and feed for a while then he will fall asleep around 9.30/10pm ish.
I know he should be going to sleep earlier but is there any point introducing a sleep routine now or waiting until he's a little older?

It's difficult though isn't it, you don't want to panic a new mum or make her even more depressed Then again having info about what things you can change with sleeping and what to expect of normal is probably empowering.

I also think that the current accepted wisdom that the baby comes before everything and everyone is unhelpful.
I prioritised my sanity and wellbeing, I am afraid, which I am aware is incredibly unfashionable now.
While accepting that there are a very small numbers of babies (most of whom seem to belong to MN parents) who don't respond to training and routine, I really struggle to have much sympathy with limp-wristed parents who 'can't' get a baby into a routine because they think it means they love their baby more to let them rule the situation.
Parenting is about teaching boundaries, and if you fall at the first hurdle when your newborn 'won't' settle in a cot, sleep alone, be put down or any of the other things that babies apparently 'refuse' to do on MN, there will be a long road ahead.
And no, I haven't googled the 4th trimester

I totally agree cathf and if you are around parents of babies young children nowadays lol most of them have sleep issues which are mostly entirely brought on themselves. When they go on to explain the problems they are having and the “routine” they’ve had since birth I am and I’ll say it again gobsmacked. I have never put my kids babies to sleep. I have put them to bed.

For @Copperandtod and @cathf would your babies never wake in the night then? From what age? And if they did, what did you do?

We also started at a few weeks old when we found he was going to sleep at around a set time so we took the lead from him.

He was also in his own room from 2 weeks old. We then did everything relating to him in his room. We've never had any problems with him sleeping by himself nor wanting to come and sleep in our bed :-)

All three of mine slept 6pm-2am from about six weeks. All of them had dropped the 2am feed by 12 weeks, so slept 6pm-7am by three months.
They rarely woke up once they were down, but if they did, they were left to shuffle, grunt and whine, I only went to them when they were actually crying, as something was obviously wrong. If I am honest, that happened so rarely, I can't remember what I did. I certainly would have given them a cuddle to calm them down, but it was very infrequent
I am always told I have been lucky, and I am sure I have. But I have had three children, to two different fathers, all very different personalities, so I think I probably did help them along.

BF on demand. During day babies put down in cot Moses basket pram bouncy chair or swing whatever was handiest and suited situation tv on hoovers used door bell ringing the usual noises. Out for walks etc baby sleep whenever wherever. If I knew I was going to be in for the morning or afternoon I would often put them in cot but continue hoovering etc. During the night bath, feed and bed. Not always at same time but at a time which suited me and what I had been doing that day. Very dim night light, often musical mobile. Never left crying. Always picked up if crying winded changed fed whatever was necessary. This went on for weeks between colic reflux and feeding. Always put back in cot. No chatter no singing. Always quiet. Feeds eventually went from every 1 hour to 2 hours to 4 hours to 6 and so on to sleeping all night during the night. At about 2 months sleeping 7 hours. My sister had rigid sleep times. Babies could only sleep at specified time in a bed beside her, not in a pram at shops in a car if you happened to be travelling basically not at any other time. She also went to bed every night and lay beside them to sleep bf them until they were over 2 and they always went at 7 pm In my view bonkers!!! I on the other hand put my babies toddlers children down at a time which suited mine and their needs with a simple goodnight I love you. Obviously a day old baby didn’t go down for very long before needing a feed but that was gist. First few weeks of feeding so often was exhausting. There’s no way I would have had time energy or inclination to lie and sleep with them in the dark and fast forward 3 years doing the same and sneaking out of the room in case they woke up. I had far too much to do like having a shower before the next feed ......

Number 1, 2 and 3 had own bedroom and slept there in cot or Moses basket from birth 3 had own bedroom until he was 18 months old and I brought number 4 home. They shared from day one not a problem but I do have to say number 3 was a very heavy sleeper and would not have woken up had I taken him out in a buggy and left him in the middle of a nightclub. They shared until number 4 was 24 months old. Then they all had their own bedrooms.

They rarely woke up once they were down, but if they did, they were left to shuffle, grunt and whine, I only went to them when they were actually crying, as something was obviously wrong

I also think that pre-technology this approach was easier. Our babies slept in their own room from about 10 days, and we didn't have monitors, and we closed the door, so you only heard them if they REALLY needed you, and then, of course, we went in. I often used to crack open the door when I went to bed, and see that they were playing in their cots, it was safe, warm and dark, and our mantra was always to let them be. Different days, and different attitudes. Oh, and we didn't get so much conflicting advice, because there wasn't much, other than what your mother told you..... perhaps that made it easier too.

I have never had a baby monitor either

@Copperandtod we both have had the same "routine" for babies except on medical advice at 7 weeks I was still having to lift and feed my baby every 4 hours.
And I do have a video monitor but I like this as I can see what ds is doing. If he isn't crying I don't go in to him.
Just shows how different babies respond differently to the same routines.

No we don’t. Mine were in cot in own room from birth not 6 months and I would not rock to sleep

Why is it assumed that parents who choose a more baby led approach are not prioritising their sanity and wellbeing? Just as there are many different kinds of babies there are also different kinds of people. Some people obviously find the sleep thing more of a stress than others. FWIW though the trend does seem to be going more towards emphasising that mothers have needs too and that filling your own cup first is essential - just seems to be a more general assurance to do that, rather than a prescriptive instruction to do it in X way.

TBH any time I have ever attempted the kind of thing the "sleep training and routines brigade" advocate, that is when I have felt my sanity and wellbeing suffer. I'm not really interested in doing that kind of stressful "work" in the short term in order for results long term. But everyone is different.

Why is it not possible to see that people can be different and find different things hard/easy, to be happy with your own way, without everyone else's way being wrong?

If you’re on the sleep forum feeling resentment and bitterness towards those with good old fashioned advice which works and have had to get a “sleep consultant” (what even is that. Do you need qualifications or do you just set yourself up ) to assist you putting your 8 month old to bed your way was clearly “wrong” or you would not be in that position

None of that describes Bertie in any way. She has described what she does and why it works for her. It doesn't work for me, but that's fine. It is ridiculous to claim there is one correct way to parent. Bertie has a way that works brilliantly for her. She has at no point tried to insist it's universal, just that it's one possible way. I think you have to be either very narcissistic or a bit dim to think that the way you raised your children is some sort of gold standard that no one else should deviate from.

It does describe me. I don't really care that you think I did it 'wrong'. It is true that we got to a point where it didn't work for us, so we did things a bit differently. That isn't something to be ashamed of.

Do you know what I think is loads more important than the exact details of how DS goes to sleep? Teaching him to be a kind and compassionate person. And you have to practice what you preach in that regard.

I wasn’t talking about Bertie I was talking about anyone who is bitter and resentful. My children are kind and compassionate. I am complimented regularly from teachers other parents and strangers. I am incredibly proud of my children and what a good job I have done in raising them. Maybe I do deserve a gold star. I’m not sure what that has to do with the sleep thread. I haven’t called anyone a cow or a narcissist I have simply reiterated my point of view in response to the defensive posts by those who are clearly not happy with their babies sleep patterns.

Hello all. We're calling for a bit of peace and love on this thread please, and while we're here, we'd like to remind you of our Talk Guidelines.

After all, new parents need all the support (and sleep) they can get.

Thanks
MNHQ

@Copperandtod you said you never let them cry and would pick up and cuddle them change them etc to settle them before putting them back in cot which is exactly what i also do. Sometimes that settlimg involves rocking and that works for my son. It works for me. Your way of putting your kids is great it works for you but it is not the only way as others have tried to say.
Yes your right we differ in that mine went into his cot in our room before 6 months because that is the safe sleep guidelines given. Again it is fine if you are happy to put them in their own room but a new parent who keeps their child in their room for the first 6 months in order to meet the safety guidelines is not wrong or setting their child up to never sleep. They are doing what they think is the safest and the best thing for their child. For me I would much rather have my child in my room for 6 months reducing the SIDS risk than put them into their own room just to get a better nights sleep.
I am certainly not bitter or resentful of those on here who have babies that slept through from a very very young age. I think that's great but I am keen to reassure the parents of babies who do not sleep through the night that does not necessarily mean they are doing anything wrong.
I do firmly believe that all babies get there in the end.
Bertie and Newuser speak a lot of good sense and helpful advice

This is hilarious. I asked a simple question and it turns into a full on crazy woman bitch fest. Some posters on here are way too worried about everyone's else's sleep!
I'll leave you lot to continue to fight it out 🙄

I haven’t seen resentment either. Mine took ages to get into a routine but she’s more or less there and I wouldn’t change anything.

I have seen a lack of support from certain posters. I wonder how what is gained from bullying someone who admited they suffered with PND. It suggests to me maybe those posters aren’t as happy with life as they claim or they might be able to comprehend basic compassion.

@hopefulhalf I'm with you I started at 10 days as well!

Oh dear what did I miss? Perhaps best not to know. Hope you get some sleep OP

Jesus. This thread. All babies are different. And inconsistent! Mine wanted to be alone and in the dark to go to sleep at night but on me being bounced and cuddled to nap. Nothing I could have done to change it until she was ready.

Motherhood is really, really tough. No matter what way you tackle it. Whatever your struggle is, you have my admiration for handling it.

stillmonday any sleep related thread always ends up the same. Those of us who do a routine from day one try to suggest it might work and those who didn't do a routine and have a more relaxed attitude will never agree. Just do what works for you tbh - if you don't mind clock watching and sticking to set times then a routine is going to work. It's not for everyone.
I agree all babies are different but I don't think there is too much of a coincidence that both mine slept well from day one - and both are now really fussy eaters. I have got the sleeping nailed but not the fussy eating. Nothing is ever perfect :)

Agree Converse. That said, it is so frustrating when posters ask for advice to help their babies sleep, then turn on those who give it as it is not what they want to hear.
It is horses for courses really - I can honestly imagine nothing more soul-destroying than spending most of my evening arsing around trying to get a toddler to sleep because I hadn't done everything I could in the early days to sort it out.
Likewise, my bed is my sanctuary and I just don't want to share it with my children, sorry.
I think a pp may have nailed it when they mentioned extended maternity leave, as I have wondered that too. With my first, if my memory serves me right, by the time he was born I was paid smp only, and that only lasted - I think - three months. So psychologically, you were on the downward hill back to work from the get go. Everyone I know who had babies back then were obsessed with sleeping through, because you didn't have the time to mess around. Another point is that employers were not as flexible then, so once you were back at work, that was it. No flexible working, late starts, compressed hours or working from home. Part-time working was at your employer's discretion and hours were fairly rigid.
Also agree with the pp who said that having a baby was much easier before social media. The only non-midwife/HV advice you had was from your mother and friends, so was probably fairly static.
Now there are so many theories and experts and so much showboating and comparing on sm.
Parenthood is elevated to a status it just wasn't even 20 years ago, and I honestly think it is the babies and children who are paying the price.