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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

I actually do think anti vaxxers have a point to a certain extent

394 replies

HairHereThere · 25/04/2019 21:19

Like with ANY medication/treatment there are risks
I feel the government are letting us down with such a one sided ‘vaccines are safe’ argument and how they never want to admit that vaccinations cause problems.
I think, I’m some cases they do. Not being able to claim under the vaccine damage scheme for under 2s gives the wrong message too it’s just too.......defensive ?

If they said actually there is a risk, it’s small but it’s there and we’re honest then had more of a balanced reasoning that yes there’s a risk but it’s a choice and presented it better that the scaremongering would die down

I’m theory I’m anti vax but I’ve vaccinated my children fully because I believe it’s a risk but a risk that is worth taking if that makes sense.
Some I spent to though are terrified and feel there’s such a brick wall up around balanced discussion and it makes things worse ?

OP posts:
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9
longwayoff · 26/04/2019 07:46

Stop scaremongering. Your opinion is not scientific fact. Keep it to yourself.

bellinisurge · 26/04/2019 07:48

Does this count as an acceptable risk for anti-vax people?
Newborn with measles because there is no herd immunity in the area:
Measles: 'My baby's eyes were swollen shut' www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-48039524

WeirdPatient · 26/04/2019 08:01

Stop scaremongering. Your opinion is not scientific fact. Keep it to yourself.
Can you explain which part of OP's opinion is not scientific fact *?

MockerstheFeManist · 26/04/2019 08:08

There is always risk.

Taking your kid to the GPs to be vaccinated is a risk. You could get run over, blown up by a suicide bomber, hit by a giant block of ice-poo that fell off an aircraft, trampled by a runaway musk ox, etc.

What we need is the establishment of an office of the crown, Her Majesty's Idiot-Slapper Pursuivant, who would go about, finding anti-vaxxers to slap them about the head repeatedly with the Royal Haddock of Correction, in the name of Her Majesty.

WeirdPatient · 26/04/2019 08:09

And can I ask a question?

How many of you have been given the patient information leaflet for your or your child's vaccines?

Because I never have for the DC's, and neither for the ones I had as an adult except for the last time. That was only because it was a non-standard vaccination so I wouldn't automatically be re-called for the booster and the info sheet had the recommended schedule on it.

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 26/04/2019 08:14

I agree with others on the the thread who say that rare reactions to drugs do exist, and to not acknowledge people's concerns or to take the piss doesnt help assuage those concerns

Im concerned about a particular vaccination for one of my children (they are an adult so its up to them whether they get it or not, so nothing i can or would influence) but i cant talk about it on MNHQ as the reactions can be very extreme

But to be fair that happens on loads of subjects on mumsnet Smile

Rufusthebewilderedreindeer · 26/04/2019 08:15

I don't remember getting it weird

PinkDrink · 26/04/2019 08:15

I'm another one whose baby had a significant reaction, but who was made to feel I was silly, misinformed and over-anxious in linking it to the vaccine.

Took my 9 week old, entirely breastfed daughter to have her first DPT jab. By the evening a rash of little spots had sprung up on her forehead and spread down her cheeks. By the next morning her whole face was livid with it and it was all over her chest. Took her back to the clinic and the HV did that exact same thing that other posters have reported - wouldn't even let me finish speaking or listen to my concerns. She just kept repeating that it was 'a coincidence', and making me out to be a bit overwrought and silly. Eventually (making a big show of what a fuss I was making) she got one of the GPs to come and talk to me, who repeated the same line, equally patronisingly. It was nothing to do with the vaccine. A coincidence.

It felt utterly surreal, like I was being gaslighted.

I did go on to have all 3 of my children fully vaccinated, but with huge trepidation because I felt like I couldn't rely on the information that was out there, or on doctors to be honest about risk. I think they consider herd immunity to be everything and individuals who may have adverse reactions are considered collateral damage. Obviously I understand the importance of herd immunity, but I'd like to see more honesty and transparency about side effects.

ShadowLine · 26/04/2019 08:20

How many of you have been given the patient information leaflet for your or your child's vaccines?

I’ve been given these at every vaccination my DC have had. They’re all stuffed into the pocket on DCs red book.

longwayoff · 26/04/2019 08:28

Weird: Opinion is not fact. That's a fact.

MissMilly88 · 26/04/2019 08:32

Planting even a little bit of doubt in some parents minds is enough for them to not vaccinate. The risks aren't hidden in any way, but clearly the benefits massively outweigh them.

Aethelthryth · 26/04/2019 08:34

Going back to 2002
GPs were being paid to get as many children vaccinated as possible. This created a conflict of interest and we felt we could not be sure that they would advise disinterestedly about the risk to any individual child.

We went privately to an eminent consultant paediatrician. He said that there is some risk attached to any medication or vaccination. The ideal position for any individual is not to be vaccinated oneself but to have everyone else vaccinated, so that the disease in question is unlikely to be encountered, However, given that not everyone else is vaccinated, it is far safer for an individual to be so than not. Further, all the links between the MMR and autism had, even then been thoroughly disproved and their author struck off.

Anti-vaxxing is just woke nonsense

WeirdPatient · 26/04/2019 08:35

longwayoff

Yes, I know that. But which bit of what the OP is saying do you think is her opinion rather than a fact?

Because it is a fact that it is possible to have a reaction to a vaccination, that is not an opinion.

Clutterbugsmum · 26/04/2019 08:36

OP perhaps you should look at what is happening in New York state.

They had eradicated Measles in the year 2000, but they are having a major outbreak due to one unvaccinated family going to Israel.

LucheroTena · 26/04/2019 08:49

Herd immunity is crucial. The problem is people don’t see the damage diseases like measles and polio did. Vaccine risk is tiny in comparison.

I would fully support unvaccinated children being prevented from attending school (unless medically exempt from vaccination). I’m sure that would swiftly improve uptake!

ILoveAnOwl · 26/04/2019 08:52

My son has a condition caused by a virus. Only children who have had a specific vaccine have the condition. Those who are unvacinated have been shown to have caught the virus, but not had the condition. It could of course just be coincidence...

However, we've still vaccinated his younger sister as the statistics indicated that was still the safer thing to do.

The story is just not as one sided as people would have you believe.

PinkDrink · 26/04/2019 08:56

Anti-vaxxing is just woke nonsense

Says the person who could afford to go 'privately to an eminent consultant paediatrician' for individual advice and reassurance.

This thread has shown that most parents' resistance to vaccination comes from a fear of harming their child and the feeling that they're not being told the whole truth, not some vague hipster trend.

ScatteredMama82 · 26/04/2019 09:02

@HairHereThere have a look at the patient insert leaflets for vaccines. While you're at it, have a look at the one for paracetamol, and for an antibiotic such as amoxicillin. There are listed side effects for all, from common to rare. No one says every medicine is safe, there are always risks of AEs. To say the antivaxxers have a point is ridiculous. They are scaremongers, take a look at the rise in preventable disease statistics - their nonsense is causing this.

BertrandRussell · 26/04/2019 09:15

The “well, I just think people should be better informed- obviously I’m not anti vaccination but......” is a recentish tactic of the anti vaccine crowd. So be aware......

GinTimeAtHome · 26/04/2019 09:23

@Prequelle

Your post about antibiotics is not entirely true for me - I and 3 other people in my family avoid and are anti antibiotics due to severe reactions. I am never given any by a Gp if I need them due to my severe sensitivity to them I am always taken into hospital for IV they always have a resus team with me as I have nearly died several times. Different antibiotics each time. I’m some kinda medical mystery as they can’t work out why I have these reactions 🤷‍♀️

My children are not vaccinated due to severe adverse reactions, spending over a week in hospital with my dc1 due to the reactions and being told they might not live is enough to put me off.

However I have an appointment next week with a consultant to discuss again and decide if it may be safe to give now - we will discuss all options. I’m guessing this is due to the poor vaccine uptake.

I am not anti vaccine in fact I fully support the vaccine schedule and my children are fully reliant on herd immunity.

I do understand where the op is coming from - we need more transparency about it all.

BertieBotts · 26/04/2019 09:25

I'm with you OP. i felt very similar when my first child was newborn. I ended up getting him vaccinated late but I was anxious about it. Ten years later with my second I am happy to accept the recommended schedule of vaccination for babies and toddlers and I don't feel frightened of vaccinations any more. But I find it extremely unhelpful to dismiss parents' fears as "stupidity" or "anti science". All this does is point them towards the greedy hands of the antivax lobby - and believe it or not there is a decent amount of money in this. It's not stupid or anti science to question things, anyway. No scientist would say that. It's a good thing people are looking for reassurance IMO - it leaves the way for more information to be out there, I strongly believe in transparency, evidence and education in general. All you need for information to be accessible is to break it down and/or define specialised vocabulary. I don't just want an expert to decide for me and present me with the outcome. I want to know (roughly) how they got there. I think this is the way most people of my generation feel, we don't want to be patronised, we don't want things to be overly simplified. Fine - put the simple message on the headline, but have the facts available too. That is all we ask, and I think it's reasonable.

For me, what shocked me was I'd never heard there might be risks to vaccination before - and there are, this is not scaremongering or obsession with autism, some people do have a severe allergic reaction to vaccination causing encephalitis - ironically, the same dangerous side effect of many of the diseases we vaccinate against. What would have helped to temper my fear about that would be somebody pointing out that actually there are the same risks for calpol, or antibiotics, or even ordinary household things like food and washing powder. That I'd accept the risks of anaesthetic if my child needed surgery. And that in fact vaccines have to be tested and held to a higher standard because they are given to healthy people.

There are other myths floating around the antivax "community" as well though - that the diseases aren't really that bad (but actually, the more I learn about measles the more I think vaccinating against it is extremely sensible), that vaccination may not really work anyway, that a young baby will be "overloaded" (actually there may be truth in this if a baby is small for their age but ask your doctor - they are usually happy to discuss fears, and agree to delay if it seems sensible), that the vaccine schedule is based on formula fed babies and breastfeeding may provide protection, etc. They even jump on the cot death fear which is pretty much your #1 anxiety of the first 6 months - nope, that's wrong too - babies who are vaccinated have lower levels of cot death.

But also it's a proximity thing, isn't it? If a disease is rife and thousands are killed or injured a year due to the disease, a vaccine that kills or injures, say, 60 per year looks far, far lower risk.

But reduce the incidence of disease to a point that only 5 people each year are killed or injured by it, and suddenly, the vaccine killing/injuring 60 seems like a much higher risk. It's difficult to keep in mind that it is the vaccination which keeps the numbers as low as 5 in the first place. And in fact with all vaccines as we go through a process of eliminating the disease there will be a point where the vaccine is at source more risky than the disease is. But you have to keep going until the population is protected enough not to need the vaccine. It's a bit like taking antibiotics to the end of the course. By the last couple of days, the antibiotics are doing you more harm than the illness is. It's only when you stand back and look at the bigger picture that you can see that it's essential to take the full seven day course as this minimises your antibiotic exposure overall by ensuring you don't need to restart if the infection comes back. That's how vaccination works on a population level over generations, but it can mean that at certain points in a vaccine's lifespan, it's actually worse for a minority of individuals to be vaccinated than not. That's one of the arguments against the chicken pox vaccine, IIRC.

I do think it is a LOT better these days though than it was back in the 00s where a lot of the discussion online was completely unbalanced and nobody was interested in hearing the other side, in fact, it was far more of a mud slinging thing than anything else.

I found the following resources helpful, anyway:

violentmetaphors.com/2014/03/25/parents-you-are-being-lied-to/ - and all the linked stuff.

- Just get through the first 10 seconds where it starts with the usual "Vaccines are safe, duh" stuff. It's good.

The CDC now has some excellent pages comparing vaccine risks with disease risks, those were stats I wish I'd had when DS1 was little. (It starts off a bit patronising but does address fears well) - www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/vaccine-decision/index.html

The NHS page is OK, but less good IMO. It's still a bit too simple and suggests that all vaccine reactions are reversible and would happen immediately, which I don't believe is the case, and would make me a bit nervous to trust their other stuff. But overall it is a start and has good info. www.nhs.uk/conditions/vaccinations/benefits-and-risks/

HairHereThere · 26/04/2019 09:25

Ok so insert leaflets are one issue and yes they do contain details of possible side effects

The bigger issue I feel is the shitting down if any discussion over undocumented side effects and whether there is anything in it or not there’s a real fear currently and I think it needs to taken right back to the beginning. These fears need to be heard and openly spoken about. The constant shutting down of discussion is causing more fear and then conspiracy theories

OP posts:
HairHereThere · 26/04/2019 09:26

ShUtting ...... not what my phone autocorrected to !

OP posts:
BertrandRussell · 26/04/2019 09:27

“The bigger issue I feel is the shitting down if any discussion over undocumented side effects”

Shutting down by who?
What sort of side effects?

HairHereThere · 26/04/2019 09:30

The people I’m speaking to in person and the groups I’m active in will not currently tolerate anyone trying to justify the risk v benefit of vaccinations and here it’s the reverse situation almost, there has to be some middle ground as the more it’s pushed then less uptake amongst certain groups and the less they feel listened to the more they spread the fear.

The latest talk of no mmr no school is just being met with well great we can all home ed it’s not a deterrent we will just end up with vaccinated kids in school non vaccinated kids home educated and that won’t help! Something needs to be done to meet both sides halfway

OP posts: