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I actually do think anti vaxxers have a point to a certain extent

394 replies

HairHereThere · 25/04/2019 21:19

Like with ANY medication/treatment there are risks
I feel the government are letting us down with such a one sided ‘vaccines are safe’ argument and how they never want to admit that vaccinations cause problems.
I think, I’m some cases they do. Not being able to claim under the vaccine damage scheme for under 2s gives the wrong message too it’s just too.......defensive ?

If they said actually there is a risk, it’s small but it’s there and we’re honest then had more of a balanced reasoning that yes there’s a risk but it’s a choice and presented it better that the scaremongering would die down

I’m theory I’m anti vax but I’ve vaccinated my children fully because I believe it’s a risk but a risk that is worth taking if that makes sense.
Some I spent to though are terrified and feel there’s such a brick wall up around balanced discussion and it makes things worse ?

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BertieBotts · 26/04/2019 09:30

I've never been given a vaccine insert either, but you can google them if you especially want to read them. I expect you can ask for them at the appointment as well but if it's too late, google would be the best way. This is what I tend to do for all medicines anyway as we are in Germany so the leaflets are always in German. I google the medicine to find out if the brand has a leaflet in English and if not, whether the generic version does (it usually does).

zsazsajuju · 26/04/2019 09:32

I agree op. I am definitely pro vax as I think the risks are worth the benefits but I don’t think we get accurate information about what the risks actually are.

HairHereThere · 26/04/2019 09:33

Shutting down of discussion by health professionals
I’ve experienced it you cannot it seems query whether a vaccination has caused anything other than a mild temp or a sore leg/arm anything more and it’s a coincidence ...

I do think as well anti vaxxers are in a false sense of security benefitting from years of low or no rates of certain diseases and maybe it will take sadly a resurgence of them to make people realise

I still am wary myself if vaccinations I didn’t vaccinate for years and then did they all separately when I researched and thought actually I’m anxious about it but I need to vaccinate my children

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HairHereThere · 26/04/2019 09:37

I’m not sure if exactly what side effects but I know there is huge alarm over the ingredients in vaccines from families who try to avoid all potential allergens/anything they consider toxic etc so there are many elements to it
Also a huge belief that for healthy children none of the disease vaccinated against are that bad, etc
There is educating to do and also openness needed and willingness to discuss everything even if some fears are unfounded and irrational it’s better to try and address then and unravel it than to constantly say the same response and shut down discussions

I dont think any medication, vaccine or treatment is without risk but for whatever reason the way vaccine anxiety is dealt with is making the problem worse

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BertieBotts · 26/04/2019 09:39

Yes. If you compare the CDC page above and the NHS page I linked, the NHS one says:

"In much rarer cases, some people have an allergic reaction soon after a vaccination....On very rare occasions, a severe allergic reaction may happen within a few minutes of the vaccination This is called an anaphylactic reaction....Vaccination staff are trained to deal with this, and these reactions are completely reversible if treated promptly."

Whereas the CDC one says:

"Serious side effects after vaccination, such as severe allergic reaction, are very rare and doctors and clinic staff are trained to deal with them. Pay extra attention to your child for a few days after vaccination. If you see something that concerns you, call your child’s doctor."

I find the CDC line much more reassuring somehow. Like the NHS one seems to imply "If your reaction doesn't happen immediately then it doesn't count and we don't want to know" - I guess because the NHS is strained and they can't cope with hundreds of worried parents making appointments for really spurious things which are probably nothing to do with vaccination in the following days/weeks, whereas the US one seems to imply that they will take any concerns about a potential reaction seriously. I get that their pardiatricians are private and probably benefit from anxious parents calling back/having extra appointments, but it's still a far more reassuring prospect.

There's also much more info on the CDC site about the process of linking side effects to vaccines and how this is studied, whereas on the NHS site you have to click through to another page and then it's really simple again with not much info about the process of how they determine whether it's related or not.

Tinyteatime · 26/04/2019 09:43

these reactions are completely reversible if treated promptly."

This isn’t actually true is it? Sadly even with promt treatment sometimes the outcome of a severe anaphylaxis isn’t good.

Starlive23 · 26/04/2019 09:47

My daughter had a reaction to the MMR so, as per the info leaflet I was given, I took her to the doctors...only to be told categorically no, the reaction is just a coincidence. Absolutely zero discussion!

I mean, DD had already had the vaccine so I expected a bit less hostility. I wasn't actually questioning the safety only asking if the reaction was something to worry about.

The NHS' defensiveness is over the top.

SinkGirl · 26/04/2019 09:51

If they said actually there is a risk, it’s small but it’s there and we’re honest then had more of a balanced reasoning that yes there’s a risk but it’s a choice and presented it better that the scaremongering would die down

No it wouldn’t, vaccination rates would drop horribly.

I have autistic twin boys. They both regressed at 18 months old, six months after their last vaccinations. If it had happened very soon after them I can understand why you might think it’s linked, that doesn’t make it true.

HairHereThere · 26/04/2019 09:54

And that’s what doctors need to say I think that yes we can see why you might think the vaccine caused these are the reasons why we don’t think it did/what probably did cause the symptoms your child is experiencing
Being open and willing to discuss and then to reassure

OP posts:
SinkGirl · 26/04/2019 09:55

My daughter had a reaction to the MMR so, as per the info leaflet I was given, I took her to the doctors...only to be told categorically no, the reaction is just a coincidence. Absolutely zero discussion!

Unfortunately this is true for much of medicine.

I had a Mirena coil and horrific side effects. The internet is full of women discussing identical side effects.

I went to my Gynae and it went like this:

Me: I’m having all these problems and I’m sure it is related to the to the Mirena coil. I would like it removed

Gynae: It’s not the coil

Me: How do you know?

Gynae: These are not reported side effects

Me: Okay, so are you going to report my side effects?

Gynae: no, it’s not the coil.

Me: what is it then?

Gynae: it’s not the coil

When I finally had it removed a year later (very long story), the side effects all vanished. What a shocker.

SinkGirl · 26/04/2019 09:56

And that’s what doctors need to say I think that yes we can see why you might think the vaccine caused these are the reasons why we don’t think it did/what probably did cause the symptoms your child is experiencing
Being open and willing to discuss and then to reassure

But I have had exactly these discussions with my children’s specialists, not just about vaccinations but about many other things and whether they’ve caused their multiple disabilities.

Tinyteatime · 26/04/2019 09:56

I wasn’t dismissed, but then dds face was swollen for all to see and she was wheezing. The consultant at the hosp immediately okayed it for us to have the 2nd lot there. I had to ask for that though, it wasn't automatically triggered and she had them late as it took so long for them to book her in because of some admin difficulties that I never got to the bottom of. I did also wonder about how they collect figures for reactions, as dds was not reported. I’d guess there are many more mild undocumented reactions to vaccines than are officially reported but that still wouldn’t outweigh the risks of not vaccinating.

MumUnderTheMoon · 26/04/2019 09:58

Actually I'm fairly certain that the nhs/ government are open about the fact that in a very small number of cases there can be adverse affects from vaccinations but that the risk of going unvaccinated is much much worse. If vaccination drops below 90% uptake then herd immunity will fail and all babies, the elderly and the immunosuppressed will be at risk. We are privileged to live in a time where people don't remember what it was like to fear your child's death from measles or the many other things we can now prevent. Not vaccinating is socially irresponsible and frankly selfish and foolish.

DaveSpondoolix · 26/04/2019 10:02

@HairHereThere again, certain groups But who are these specific groups of people? What are the common characteristics they share that make them a group? How many groups? If we know this info, we can better frame information in a way that is meaningful to these specific groups of people and their contexts.

BertieBotts · 26/04/2019 10:02

I will say, there is lots of info about ingredients on both NHS and CDC sites. And actually most of the info on these antivax websites about "toxic ingredients" are REALLY unfounded, very bogus, they worry about a lot of stuff which isn't really necessarily dangerous, neither dairy or gluten will hurt you, if you don't have an allergy (dairy being terrible for the cows/planet is a separate issue entirely) or things that have been studied loads and found to be fine, like microwaves, or mobile phone masts (I can see all my slightly hippy friends worrying about 5G at the moment which apparently "hasn't been studied" except, um, it has). And yet you will see on the same pages huge support for things like bamboo as a material to make eating utensils, even though bamboo contains large amounts of formaldehyde, encouragement to re-use old products, which, OK, saving the planet but older, more worn items leech all kinds of things (BPA, asbestos, lead paint...) not to mention older products having to meet less stringent safety standards, and medicinal marijuana seems to have massive support for everything from colds to labour to cancer, which is just bonkers to pretend that it's some wonder drug with no risks and no side effects ever.

My dentist recently mentioned to me that she does not do amalgam fillings, and I said oh yes, I heard that it's dangerous due to the mercury. She said well sort of, the level of mercury in a filling is far less than the dangerous level, so mercury fillings aren't dangerous to the patient themselves, the danger with the mercury is to dental staff, because if they do fillings regularly they are regularly inhaling the fumes, which is bad. And the reason she wouldn't do them is because it involves removing more healthy tooth than modern types of cement and resin.

Human bodies are pretty robust and can handle all sorts of things - it's not a bad idea to try and reduce our exposure to toxins such as those contained in vaccines, but it's a risk/benefit thing again - if you are seriously worried about them then cutting out vaccines, which have a miniscule amount of toxin and massive benefit, is stupid when compared to cutting out something which has a minimal benefit or is simply a convenience factor and has a much higher level of the toxin in to cut out.

I mean seriously if you think about it - cut out car travel or meat or plastic toys or whatever, these things make sense but to be highly suspicious of medicines? Even preventative ones? It doesn't make sense. You cannot cut out every source of "toxin" because it is in our soil and our air and our water, limiting exposure is sensible but not at the expense of something like medicine.

MotherOfDragonite · 26/04/2019 10:06

Ok @slashlover, I guess it's more comparable to suggesting that pregnant women should be forcibly induced at term. My point is that it is a slippery slope away from bodily autonomy if you suggest that the government should mandate medical treatment of any sort, even if there could be a benefit or reduced harm to others.

LucheroTena · 26/04/2019 10:13

Humans can cope with multiple doses of vaccine, we’re exposed every day to a great many immune system challenges.

Get your children vaccinated people, it’s foolish not to.

Make vaccination mandatory in order to attend school (unless medically exempt).

Starlive23 · 26/04/2019 10:14

@Sinkgirl yes totally agree it's not just vaccines. Heaven forbid you'd know your own body...

BertieBotts · 26/04/2019 10:16

YY exactly (re anaphylaxis) - it doesn't inspire confidence. I expect it is supposed to be reassuring but it is the opposite. I would much rather they were honest and said yes in extreme cases, something really bad might happen but when you look at the big picture vaccinating your child is the smaller risk. Which they sort of do but I do feel like the risks of vaccination are played down.

WeirdPatient · 26/04/2019 10:36

My doctor didn't even know the side effects of the vaccine she gave me. She looked them up when I went back to her and textbook rare side effects. At my most recent appointment she has recommended that I have the rest of the schedule but she will not give it to me. I need to find another doctor who will.

Oh, so reassuring!

havingtochangeusernameagain · 26/04/2019 10:55

I also agree OP. I've said on here before that the argument to vaccinate is an economic one - it is much cheaper to vaccinate the population than it is to deal with illness - and there is also a cost of parents taking time off work to look after sick kids. But lets not think the government pays for vaccination out of any altuistic motive.

And while I think something like a vaccination for meningitis or polio is a complete no brainer and I do think you'd be completely stupid not to have it I can see why people might consider that a flu vaccine isn't worth it.

I've also said on here ad nauseam that the fact that there is vaccine damage legislation (which predates the MMR controversy by some way) indicates that there are risks. People who worry about those risks are not stupid and time should be taken to reassure them. The legislation wouldn't be there if there were no risks bar a high temperature and feeling rubbish for a couple of days.

As I've said before in other contexts, if people listened to other views without rubbishing them, we would be in a better place. Being worried about immigration is not automatically racist. Being worried about vaccines is not automatically stupid. There are entrenched positions and it is not helpful. You don't change minds by calling people stupid. You have to educate.

DaveSpondoolix · 26/04/2019 11:15

@HairHereThere:
And that’s what doctors need to say I think that yes we can see why you might think the vaccine caused these are the reasons why we don’t think it did/what probably did cause the symptoms your child is experiencing
Being open and willing to discuss and then to reassure

This is an excellent point. Communication and engagement (including demonstrating respect) are absolutely key.

HairHereThere · 26/04/2019 11:25

I have read that the vaccine damage payment scheme is only for age 2 and up is this correct ? Why would that be the case when so many vaccinations are done before age 2? Surely if that is the case it should be changed

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SinisterBumFacedCat · 26/04/2019 11:28

And while I think something like a vaccination for meningitis or polio is a complete no brainer and I do think you'd be completely stupid not to have it I can see why people might consider that a flu vaccine isn't worth it.

It’s definitely worth it if like me and my DS you have underlying conditions that flu can aggravate. Every time we’ve been hospitalised with asthma it’s been due to a serious flu bug.

ContinuityError · 26/04/2019 11:31

I have read that the vaccine damage payment scheme is only for age 2 and up

No that’s not correct.

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