I actually do think anti vaxxers have a point to a certain extent

[HairHereThere]

Like with ANY medication/treatment there are risks
I feel the government are letting us down with such a one sided ‘vaccines are safe’ argument and how they never want to admit that vaccinations cause problems.
I think, I’m some cases they do. Not being able to claim under the vaccine damage scheme for under 2s gives the wrong message too it’s just too.......defensive ?

If they said actually there is a risk, it’s small but it’s there and we’re honest then had more of a balanced reasoning that yes there’s a risk but it’s a choice and presented it better that the scaremongering would die down

I’m theory I’m anti vax but I’ve vaccinated my children fully because I believe it’s a risk but a risk that is worth taking if that makes sense.
Some I spent to though are terrified and feel there’s such a brick wall up around balanced discussion and it makes things worse ?

Auntie Stella - no he’s not claiming anything about aluminium in jabs.

He has been quoted saying that his findings on other aluminium research means that it might be something to consider reviewing but that the amount of aluminium is so small and is not something people are injesting every day.

Sinister - my understanding is that the whole anti vax culture comes about from protective mothers worrying about their babies.
The fact that many of these anti vaxers are probably vaccinated themselves are fine counts for nothing.

The fact that people take vaccinations to travel to certain countries isn’t really discussed.

People care more when it’s something that is predominantly aimed at babies and children.

Although the anti medication movement isn’t prominent there is definitely a subset of the anti vaxxers who are 100% anti medication.

Instead they treat their children’s illnesses with liposomal vitamin c.
Some are sure that it’s all that’s needed if their children get measles or any of these deadly diseases.

I haven’t done the reasearch to find out if it does work or if there is some children seriously at risk because of this

In terms of adverse reaction, I too feel it's played down to some extent by the 'tv' famous doctors and 'its perfectly safe' is a bit of a blanket statement banded about.

Of course severe adverse/ allergic reactions are very rare, but the facts are that they can and do happen.

My DD is fully vaccinated as I decided the risks were quite small as opposed to the risks associated with the diseases themselves, but to be honest I did feel quite anxious on the days of injections themselves, and a 'don't be so silly' type reaction from the nurse didn't really make me feel like my concerns were valid, when in reality they were!

I think the debate would go along the lines of,
Which diseases do we really need to vaccinate agents?
USA vaccinat agenst chicken pox, uk don't . Do all USA parents think all UK parents are idiots?
Why have UK started vaccinating agenst mumps (1988 I believe ) but stoped vaccination agenst TB?
Has any agency done any long term resurch on 50+ generations being vaccinated?
Do we know if any priviusly unknown pathogens have been discovered since the eradication of smallpox.
My DD had been vaccinated, but I'd still like to have these conversations.

I have a rather different opinion of those who reject all medicine - they are at least consistent. And there’s so few of them that they are irrelevant to the herd,

I'm not in the UK so I can only comment as to my experience. Everytime I took my kids for their vaccinations I was given info sheets for each one explaining all the possible reactions/side effects. I then had to sign to say I understood and had made an informed decision....you should see the tv adverts over hear for medication they go on for like 4mins listing all the possible side effects.

Any risks aside from the usual temp, sore injection site

But all this information IS publicly available. It’s called different things in each country but where you are you have a PIL (patient information leaflet) that is available for EACH vaccine and this covers rare side effects etc. If you are super keen you can even access the SmPC (or in the US termed Prescribing Information), which is aimed at healthcare professionals and contains all the technical jargon and trial results etc. Again, this is publicly available for each vaccine. The patient information just translates it into terms that non-medically qualified people can easily understand. Again, they do list rare side effects, not just what you have listed. Very confused about what information you think is being kept from you?

The Li g and short is though, that for each approved vaccine, while serious side effects are possible (albeit rare) these have been deemed much less likely than routine complications of catching the disease, that is the benefit risk profile has been deemed to support vaccination vs non-vaccination.

but to be honest I did feel quite anxious on the days of injections themselves, and a 'don't be so silly' type reaction from the nurse didn't really make me feel like my concerns were valid, when in reality they were!

All concerns are valid but it is a bit odd when you have a patient sitting there arguing the toss, whether it be vaccinations or any other medicine, when you know they have happily driven there in their car which has entailed a much greater probability of death via accident vs a serious adverse event with the medicine. I also don’t see people grilling the check-in person on flights as to the possibility of a fatal air incident before hopping on the plane when in reality that’s much more likely than a serious adverse event in most cases. So it does seem as though people have a disproportionate fear. Essentially, like everything in life it’s a numbers game, someone somewhere is going to be the unlucky person but when the odds are better than driving to work, catching a plane to Spain or even walking down the footpath .....

They give you a leaflet, no one has said vaccine damage doesn't happen but it is so very rare that vaccines are considered safe. There is a risk with any medical procedure, that's why very highly trained staff are employed to make decisions about who needs treatment and when.

And the reason anti vaxxers are dismissed without acknowledgement of the risks is because no sensible debate could ever be had if you said 'yeah vaccine damage may occur'. Anti vaxxers will then seize that opportunity to say 'well why is it so unbelievable then that they might cause autism' or whatever other fate they think is worse than death

I hate the autism link shite that gets posted.

have a suspected autistic child and one in the ground. Despite my 5 o clock wakening with the daily weather report (13 degree with a 70% chance of rain by this afternoon for anyone in the north east) which is albeit slightly annoying it's a fuck ton better then what I'll be doing this afternoon which is putting flowers on my second sons grave same as every Friday for the past four years.

"Will someone reassure me that the earth is not flat. There's an important debate to be had because I have genuine concerns. By not addressing my concerns you are alienating me."

I think frustration also occurs becuase the longer anti Vaxers hang back waiting for an explanations of safety that they are prepared to trust the longer children are at risk. The mother might think she is protecting the baby, the doctor knows she is putting that child at risk .

bebeboeuf

[Exley’s] research wasn’t based around vaccines causing auzheimers though.

It was to do with aluminium build up in general of which there’s many ways that happens.
Vaccines are the tiniest part of aluminium introduction so that’s not what his research is getting at all.
People see things that link to vaccines and jump all over them.

He directly linked Aluminium in vaccines to autism though:

Paediatric vaccines that include an aluminium adjuvant are an indirect measure of infant exposure to aluminium and their burgeoning use has been directly correlated with increasing prevalence of ASD

www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0946672X17308763

It’s not a case of “people see what they want to see”.

Continuity - his main point still not being all about vaccines .

I know what you mean OP and I agree with you. I never had anything against vaccines and I had my DC vaccinated according to the normal schedule and more without a second thought. Apart from the standard anti-vaxxers are idiots whilst I was reading about the risks etc. It was a no-brainer to me. Even after one DC was quite ill after one vaccine, I was relieved he hadn't caught the illness itself as I supposed if he reacted so badly to the vaccine he would have been very, very ill had he caught it.

However, since my last vaccine, I am much more wary. I now have recurrent head aches and partial facial paralysis caused by a vaccination. It is a known but rare side effect. Not one that was mentioned to me, in fact no possible side effects were mentioned to me by the doctor before I had it. In fairness, I would probably have had it anyway, even if I had been told. But it has certainly made me pause. And the patient information leaflet - well your'e only given that AFTER the packet has been opened and the vaccination has been administered.

This stuff is extremely dangerous to put in your body. And did you realise it lurks everywhere in most homes and many buildings? On bad days it can fall from the sky. BEWARE!!

🤣

Well you are right in that any procedure carries a small risk, any action carries a tiny risk of injury or negative outcome I suppose. Isn’t that just obvious? Yes you can have allergic reactions to vaccines. My dd had a fairly nasty reaction to one lot of jabs (swollen face). She’s an allergic child anyway and yes I was terrified of having the pre school boosters. I felt there was a much much larger risk of leaving her unvaccinated. We had them in hospital and she was fine. I think the chances of very severe reactions are about 1 in a million?

'I supposed if he reacted so badly to the vaccine he would have been very, very ill had he caught it.'

I've often thought that - there's no real way to test the hypothesis though.

You can get the pack info leaflets easily online these days, if you want to read about it before an appointment (unlike many other drugs, you know in advance what you'll be getting, rather than waiting to see what's prescribed). It is shit if you are one of the unlucky ones with one of the more serious side effects. (There are however fewer people with serious effects from jab than there wouid be from the disease)

I think the chances of very severe reactions are about 1 in a million?

Depends on the vaccine. For the one I had it the risk of rare, severe side effects are between 1:1000-1:10,000. Which is why I've changed my name for this thread

bebeboeuf Exley stated a direct link between advjuvant Al and the increase of ASD. He is funded by anti vaxxers. His research methodology and reporting is poor.

Stop saying “it’s not his main point” because in the paper I linked to, it absolutely is.

This stuff is extremely dangerous to put in your body. And did you realise it lurks everywhere in most homes and many buildings? On bad days it can fall from the sky. BEWARE!!

It's posts like this which are extremely unhelpful to the discussion. If you can only take the piss because you think anyone who doesn't agree with you is an uneducated idiot rather than hold a balanced conversation, then it doesn't do your side of the argument any good. And I say that as a research scientist who works in public health.

unlike many other drugs, you know in advance what you'll be getting, rather than waiting to see what's prescribed

Depends if there are more than one brand or type of vaccination though. I wouldn't have known in advance which one my doctor would give.