I actually do think anti vaxxers have a point to a certain extent

[HairHereThere]

Like with ANY medication/treatment there are risks
I feel the government are letting us down with such a one sided ‘vaccines are safe’ argument and how they never want to admit that vaccinations cause problems.
I think, I’m some cases they do. Not being able to claim under the vaccine damage scheme for under 2s gives the wrong message too it’s just too.......defensive ?

If they said actually there is a risk, it’s small but it’s there and we’re honest then had more of a balanced reasoning that yes there’s a risk but it’s a choice and presented it better that the scaremongering would die down

I’m theory I’m anti vax but I’ve vaccinated my children fully because I believe it’s a risk but a risk that is worth taking if that makes sense.
Some I spent to though are terrified and feel there’s such a brick wall up around balanced discussion and it makes things worse ?

My DS couldn't have his jabs till he was over a year for medical reasons. He has chronic lung diseases and an unvaccinated child could of killed him.

I have zero respect for antivaxers and personally in some cases I think it's nothing but neglect.

bebeboeuf ’Exley’s published research is highly dubious in its methodology and reporting. Oh, and some pretty dodgy undeclared funding as well. The parallels to Wakefield are uncanny.

@continuityerror it seems that way indeed. I’m heading down a dodgy looking internet rabbit hole full of Chris

I don't think healthcare professionals have time to do loads of explaining of tiny risk of severe adverse effects, empathetic listening and handholding for everyone who comes in the door for a vaccine, or even everyone who turns up at A&E who happens to be coincidentally unwell post vax.
I did my reading beforehand, took my daughter in, let them whap the vaccines in quick smart and took her out the door so they could get on with the next member of the herd. Yes I was a wee bit anxious watching her afterwards (she and I have no history of immunological weirdness but DH has a severe allergy to wasp stings) but logically I might as well have worried about her getting hit by lightning leaving the clinic- on a sunny day.

Why would Keele University have him if this is the case? Why hasn’t he been struck off?

I agree OP. The awful measles rate this year shows the breakdown in communication is real.
I am pro-vax and my children have had all their vaccines but we suffered a similar response to you after my youngest had the rotovirus vaccination. She had a pronounced and agonised reaction within a couple of hours and I was repeatedly told that this was a coincidence. Bollocks was it! A bit of Googling showed that dozens of babies had experienced the exact same thing. I refused to give her the second dose and my faith in the medical professions around me was severely shaken. They utterly refused to acknowledge that the vaccine could have any negative effects on her.

@powershower I remember those feelings.
I am severely allergic to nuts and DH allergic to everything (hayfever, eczema, asthma etc) so those days of jabs were a bit of a worry.

Our nurses got it down to such a skill that he really didn’t know what was going on and actually was laughing through one set!

I would obviously and understandably feel very different about vaccinations had my child had any reaction.

My eldest son was hospitalised with fits within hours of his first vaccination and as a result suffered some brain damage.
Naturally I was wary second time around with my second son and paid for him to have his vaccinations administered separately and he suffered nothing adverse.

Despite the issues with my eldest son, I'm still very much pro-vax. I'd rather have him slightly slower than average, than in the ground because of measles.

I have a couple of questions:

• what did you take your child to A&E for that the doc aggressively said was nothing to do with their vaccinations? What was wrong with the child and what did the doctor diagnose?

• I don’t understand what you mean by reasoned debate. You can’t debate scientific fact and opinion. Are you suggesting that anti-vaxxers would engage with vaccine developers and doctors and not just believe that the ‘research’ they’ve done on blogs is the truth?

Apologies you answered the first question.

I think people are still missing the point.

People who are anxious (and think they're right to be) don't have their minds changed by people being rude and aggressive to them.
Anger makes people defensive, and refusal to discuss makes them think that something is being hidden.

It's not rocket science. Communication is all. It doesn't take any longer for a medical professional to say gently, "no, this rash isn't the allergic rash that a tiny minority of children get, so that's not anything you need to worry about" as it does to get snippy and abrupt.
Likewise yelling at someone on a forum because they've dared even examine their own feelings, is more likely to push them away than bring them to your position.

I actually agree with OP. I'm pro Vax and my kids are vaccinated. Coincidentally or otherwise I will never know, but my youngest child suffered a whole host of events concurrent with her 1year jabs which have had long lasting effects. The effects were immediately obvious and notably different to pre jabs. It could be coincidental which is of course the medical view but it can't help make you wonder. The fact no one in the NHS will even discuss timing of jabs, in my case an ill and prem baby as all kids are vaccinated on exactly the same schedule I think possibly should be questioned. There are some private Drs specialising in vaccines who do advise against certain vaccines for some children at some times often advising them to be given later etc than the standard timing. And I agree this should be a consideration.
When my first child was born 17 yrs ago I was outright advised by a nhs gp not to give a certain vaccine in his case. Now the schedule has become so heavy in desperation to vaccinate I worry in some cases they may be given where it might not always be best for each individual. The lack of discussion does make it look like a wall of potential deceit although I am not initially of this mind set. My youngest is different, from the vaccine I don't know. I do know of seven people in my immediate local are who have experienced the identical same thing as me. Despite all of this I will still take her for assessment for a chicken pox vaccination. If we can prevent against really horrible diseases which can have serious complications without significant risk it's best to try.

What would you rather as a parent, OP?

Sore arm or a child in ICU fighting for their lives against Measles?

There has never been a SINGLE peer reviewed study undertaken that infers vaccinations carry any kind of risk.

The original fuckwit doctor who made the association between autism and vaccinations was eventually disbarred for projecting what was proven to be monetary driven lies.

If you don't vaccinate your children, you don't deserve children and I quite frankly think you should have them taken off you.

It's really hard not to get angry when confronted with someone talking absolute shite about autism and vaccines and children getting a bit of a temp and still refusing to listen to medical fact. When someone stands there saying they're anti-vax and come out with 'it's risky' or 'it might make little Johnny a bit poorly' or 'autism' or 'what if it's a conspiracy and the government are using it as a way of putting mind-control chips in our babies to turn them into drones who live to work for the good of the nation' I find it very hard not to get angry. I knew one woman who actually didn't vaccinate because she couldn't stand to see her son in pain. And I've never met an anti-vaxxer in person who had done any actual research, other than quoting some Wakefield bollocks, or who sounded open to changing their mind. Yes, it's a choice whether or not to vaccinate your child. But it's also your responsibility to keep them and the wider community as safe as you can, and getting them properly vaccinated helps to do that.

"There has never been a SINGLE peer reviewed study undertaken that infers vaccinations carry any kind of risk"

That'd just not correct. The research is summarised in the 'side effects' section that is in every pack, and they're all posted online these days if you don't bring it away with you.

It's easy to find the original research on which those warnings are based if you have access to a major publications database, to even just by google.

Now, the complications of the disease are much worse, so the risks of the vaccines pale in comparison. But that's not the same as saying they don't exist.

Even when I went for my flu vaccination, I was given a full run down of the risks and side effects, verbally, as well as being given the sheet.

Which is why yelling "There ARE NO RISKS" at worried parents is counter-productive.

Some people seem to think that it's more important to have their chance to rant at someone, than to effectively change their mind. What's the point of ranting at them if it's going to entrench their position even more? It makes no sense.

What would the balanced debate consist of?

Seriously, I spent a fair bit of my professional life trying to ensure that beleaguered and anxious parents didn't make poor decisions for their children.
The secret was to find out what it was that they were actually worried about, what they thought might happen, empathise with them, and then guide them to the best decision fo their child. If I'd yelled at them that they were stupid and that if they stuck with their decision they deserved to have their children taken away, I don't think I'd have got far, and their kids would have lost out big time.

I think I know what you mean OP and I agree. I'm vehemently pro vaccine and all of my 5 children are fully vaccinated but DD3 had a horrible reaction to her MMR booster, despite having tolerated the initial dose perfectly well, that left her hospitalised. She has permanent issues now that stem from the reaction and despite my absolute acceptance that it was completely random and as likely as a reaction from food or any other medicine, I was acutely aware of an immediate hostility and defensiveness from medical professionals whilst dealing with it.

I actually posted about it at the time for advice and received similar reactions to those you have. As though the fact that my DD was unlucky enough to be one of the tiny minority to react negatively somehow made me a hysterical anti vaxxer. It was quite unpleasant and counter productive.
My experience certainly didn't put me off vaccinating my last child, it was just one of those things. So quite why I was met with such desperate denials and attempts to discredit my description of events is beyond me. Anyone can react to anything, sometimes it's vaccines. It's not dangerous or delusional to acknowledge that.

Ok, Chris Exley.
Buzzfeed article goes into a lot of detail (kind of detail I like) about some things that undermine credibility of his research. For instance: he found high Aluminium in brains of people who had Alzheimer's. This sounds terrible!

did the study prove the deceased were ever vaccinated? No
did study look at Al levels in brains of non-Alz deceased for comparison? Not in this study, but... in other research reported by Exley; sometimes similar Al concentrations were found in not-known-to-have-Alz brains
Were many Alz brains tested? Maybe, n=12
Did the team take many many samples from each brain? No, n=3 sample replicates for each lobe
Did the biopsies explain if Al caused Alzheimer's or Alzheimer's caused more Al to accrue in the brain? No

So then Exley wrote an article republished by Daily Mail how it's 'confirmed' and "compelling" that Al potentially causes "all" Alzeimer's disease. Similar claims were made for Al & ASD / MS. It's not good science to insist 1+1 = 3.

I dunno if Al caused Alzheimer's/MS/ASD in those brains, as claimed. Those research papers didn't add good enough evidence to decide.

I wonder if on back of not being able to get UK research grants any more, if CE will sod off to USA to be funded (again) by anti-vaccine lobbyists. Getting ethical approval to keep doing his kind of tests might still be tricky in USA. Maybe he could set up in Italy & be funded from USA.

Medschool - hemis research wasn’t based around vaccines causing auzheimers though.

It was to do with aluminium build up in general of which there’s many ways that happens.
Vaccines are the tiniest part of aluminium introduction so that’s not what his research is getting at all.
People see things that link to vaccines and jump all over them.
Buzzfeed isn’t exactly credible source of facts either

Did he write the article in the Mail, or was it written by a journalist who had spoken to him?

The quality of science reporting in the UK is usually atrocious quite variable, and he editing can make a mild comment along the lines of 'this is interesting, and I think more work needs to be done in this area' sound like the world's greater breakthrough

Scaevola - that’s the worrying thing. They’ve quoted one sentence of his and it’s a throwaway comment about vaccines and not him stating a fact so it’s trying to show him as some loon

Is he actually claiming anything at all about aluminium in jabs?

Can someone put me straight, but although early onset dementia exists, most people who have it are a fair bit older them me. So wouid have had a completely different vax regime to the current one. And mercury adjuvants, not aluminium.

And anyhow, don't you get way more from deodorant and saucepans than is ever injected?

Pretty much all Prescription medication have risks of side effects and yet there isn’t a prominent “anti medication” movement as far as I know. It’s popularity is a symptom of our social media obsession, working people up into a frenzy. I suspect the grass roots of the antivaxxers have a very dubious hidden agenda.