I actually do think anti vaxxers have a point to a certain extent

[HairHereThere]

Like with ANY medication/treatment there are risks
I feel the government are letting us down with such a one sided ‘vaccines are safe’ argument and how they never want to admit that vaccinations cause problems.
I think, I’m some cases they do. Not being able to claim under the vaccine damage scheme for under 2s gives the wrong message too it’s just too.......defensive ?

If they said actually there is a risk, it’s small but it’s there and we’re honest then had more of a balanced reasoning that yes there’s a risk but it’s a choice and presented it better that the scaremongering would die down

I’m theory I’m anti vax but I’ve vaccinated my children fully because I believe it’s a risk but a risk that is worth taking if that makes sense.
Some I spent to though are terrified and feel there’s such a brick wall up around balanced discussion and it makes things worse ?

I had cp at 18, I was covered in huge red blisters that on my face formed into deep hard scabs that came off leaving craters I’ve still got at 42. They were in my mouth and throat so the gp gave me an anaesthetic mouthwash that was an emetic if you swallowed a tiny amount.

It was impossible so most days I vomited too. The headaches were awful and my useless parents said the chemist had no calamine so I went through it without it.

That was a fun three weeks. College wouldn’t let me back without a letter off the gp saying I was no longer contagious.

@WeirdPatient

So those health professionals involved reported it to the database, did they? It doesn't sound like it.

In the US it would have been reported to the CDC. As I said previously, I can't speak to NHS practices.

I had CP as an adult. It was a complete nothing event. I wasn't ill in the slightest. 2 DC had plenty spots but not in slightest bit ill. DC3 was grumpy with it, while DC4 was miserable with high fever.

On the whole, mild illness.

Lucky you @lljkk , my rough tough dh was off work for 3 weeks it was so bad.

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/pakistan-suspends-polio-vaccine-drive-after-health-worker-attacks/a-48510718

Spare a thought for the poor Pakistani healthcare workers.

MondeoFan do you have any idea how much medicine can cost? Wouldn’t you rather the gov saved money by combining vaccines so cancer patients can have medication that could save their lives? I’m sorry but this kind of thing really irritates me, people complain about prescription charges & accuse the gov of cutting costs whilst taking regular medication that can cost hundreds of pounds for one box!

@Catchingbentcoppers

I’m another one like you. I have hearing loss on both sides because of catching measles as a child. I wish people would be less blasé about the effects. I was lucky but it has still permanently affected my life.

Eastie77 The NHS is still catching up to other countries in this The Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) , which advises the UK Government, has so far advised that it would not be cost effective to introduce the chickenpox vaccine or the MMRV vaccine into the routine UK schedule...However, the JCVI is currently reviewing data from other countries where the vaccine has been in routine use over the past decade or two. It will use this to see what impact the chickenpox or MMRV vaccine is having on chickenpox and on shingles

They might want to sort out MMR uptake before making it quadrivalent and watching it all kick off again.

I wish however it was made available on NHS (with same lack of compulsion as there is for flu jabs for adults)

But I guess that any new money for jabs is going into the roll out of HPV to boys.

I don't understand the enthusiasm for herd immunity.

It makes me nervous.
It remind me of mothers sending their conscripted sons off to war for the sake of the country.

I don't know why it is something discussed in a positive way alongside the other positives of immunisation. The moment it is mentioned I feel sick.

People should immunise themselves and their family for their own individual benefits, not to create 'herd immunity'.

People who can't be immunised need to take responsibility for themselves and isolate themselves during outbreaks. Just as lots of people have to take extra measures for their own individual health issues. Keep little babies who are too young at home during maternity leave would be a good start. We shouldnt rely on the 'herd' and we need to look after ourselves.

Bloody Hell, Apricot, could not disagree with you more. There's nothing wrong with being considerate of other people. My neigbour's baby got measles at 8months old; should that baby have been kept away from public places until he 12m old & old enough to be vaccinated? Meningitis & HIb spread thru the air, too. Without knowing your own immunity status, would you choose to always wear masks in public so you can be sure to 'look after yourself'. I take HIb seriously b/c DH was nearly hospitalised with pneumonia from HIb.

What about the kid who had $1million spent on his medical care after a bout of tetanus (up thread). Leaving aside the fact that the parents think it's okay that their kid suffered a very terrible illness. That was taxpayer money, the parents didn't (and won't) pay for it at all. Are you happy for your taxes to fund that kind of 'choice' ?

@Bellinisurge Why do your rights trump mine and everyone else's? How does one even get to the point of believing they're this important? My body is mine, you can leave it right alone, thank you.

@Tiptopj Where? Measles outbreaks are still occurring in my country despite having the required vaccination rate of 95% (according to the herd immunity claim). Is anyone starting to think that maybe the vaccine isn't working? Or are we all happy to continue to stick our heads in the sand and scream 'IDIOT' at anyone who questions the status quo?

Despite the issues with my eldest son, I'm still very much pro-vax. I'd rather have him slightly slower than average, than in the ground because of measles.

This is just...insane. It's hard to believe you aren't trolling here. You would rather risk brain damage in a perfectly healthy child than the potential to catch a fever and some spots? I'm just baffled by this.

Fever & some spots? That was the worst of chickenpox for us, fair enough. But measles is not chickenpox. This is how Jilly Moss described her daughter's bout of measles (London, April 2019)

"Before this she has been a very well baby."

"She was one on April 1 and was very poorly with a high temperatures of more than 40. We took her back and forth to the doctors and she was then rushed to A&E in an ambulance. She was extremely poorly and needed oxygen and antibiotics to help. Her body swelled up if it wasn’t for the care of the doctors and nurses we believe she would not turned the corner to recovery."

"She continued to deteriorate the doctors wanted to rule out other illnesses like meningitis, Kawasaki (which causes a rash and affects the lymph nodes) and so on. By this point her eyes were swollen shut she couldn’t open them for four days."

"She needed to be tube fed she couldn’t swallow and she was so dehydrated the doctors couldn’t take her blood. She was tube fed for eight days."

"It has been absolutely horrific watching our daughter fight this with her eyes swollen shut for 4 days. She has been in the dark, scared with a high fever that lasted for over two weeks. In hospital she has been scanned, X-rayed poked prodded bloods taken, lumbar punctures done, canulars fitted, swabs taken, ECG Eccos, obs done every 20 mins, tube fed, on a drip, oxygen, pumped full of drugs, anti inflammatory pain relief antibiotics you name it she’s had it. The truth is this all could have been prevented if the protection layer of older kids above Alba had been vaccinated."

"It was absolutely terrifying to watch her go through that and be so helpless. She didn't know what was going on and it was heartbreaking to see."

"We worry for the future and the lasting effects all we can do is hope and pray that she will be okay and she won’t have anymore complications. Her cough is still very bad so she will be monitored to make sure her chest stays clear so there’s no risk of pneumonia."

"Anti-vaxxers believe all she needed was a dark room [and] vitamin A."

I’m theory I’m anti vax but I’ve vaccinated my children fully because I believe it’s a risk but a risk that is worth taking if that makes sense.

That statement is rubbish, your not anti vaccine for entirely the reason you think it’s worth the risk

It’s worth getting vaccinated to prevent the risk of the disease as that is the higher risk

@ lljkk Yes, in the vast majority of cases, it is a MILD illness that most people fully recover from. There are people who have been injured from vaccines too, permanently disabled even, with a complete loss of independence. I cannot believe that even after witnessing a brain injury due to vaccinations that they would risk further injury or injury in subsequent children.

My "right" not to die from a measles outbreak trumps your statistically tiny possibility of having an adverse reaction to a vaccination jab because I am statistically more likely to told due if there is a measles outbreak. Caused by people I am supposed to be polite to and understanding of who damage herd immunity.

told due? to die.

It's not an equal balance of rights or likelihoods hand it's pretty shockingly think it is.

I guess by "it is a MILD illness" that NTYNFM meant measles, not CP.

I dunno. 2/3 hospitalisation rate doesn't suggest mild to me.

heck, 20% hospitalised doesn't seem like a mild illness.

Could be argued that 7.4% hospitalised and 1.8% in intensive care is still not really mild.

If we want to consider other candidate thresholds for 'mild illness', CP in UK+Ireland has had a hospitalisation rate of about 16.7 per 100k pts (0.0167%).

I have a very hard time seeing "herd immunity" as similar to conscription.

Vaccination is not only of benefit to others, and it's nothing like as risky as going to fight in a war.

As I understand it the point of vaccinating (almost) everyone is not so much to protect the unimmunisable, although that is a nice bonus, but mainly to reduce the spread of disease and therefore weaken it. Over time if you restrict a disease so that it cannot spread well enough, the disease will be eradicated. That's why we no longer vaccinate against Smallpox, and in most areas neither against TB, because they have been eradicated to the point that they are not a danger to anybody. Polio is going this way as well, which is fantastic. It will be a brilliant thing when vaccination is no longer required for certain diseases, because that means nobody needs to accept either the risk of the disease or the risk of the vaccine.

Influenza...

I found an old MN thread.
Those figures suggest that 10% of UK residents get flu each year.
Annual flu-linked hospital admissions seems to be (rough estimate) 16k
Typical death toll about 12,000.
10% of Uk popn = 6.7 million.
Typical annual linked hospitalisations = about 0.23%
12000 / 6.7 million = 0.18% for death rate of linked cases.

Do we get to call influenza a mild illness?

Smallpox? ‘Tis just a mild illness surely? You’d need just need an açai berry smoothie & homeopathy for that.

🤣

I haven’t seen a polio patient in years, when I qualified they were all in their 50’s or 60’s so should be in their 70’s now, I’m assuming they don’t make it to old age or I’d still be seeing them.

There was a video on Facebook about the last man in an iron lung. They don't make them any more so he's essentially dependent on a medical antique and he has to have it repaired by an enthusiast in old engineering because modern engineers don't know how that kind of technology works any more.

Found it: www.facebook.com/watch/?v=10155943783948967

If you don't have facebook:

(Two different videos - there are 3 people in iron lungs in the world today)