I actually do think anti vaxxers have a point to a certain extent

[HairHereThere]

Like with ANY medication/treatment there are risks
I feel the government are letting us down with such a one sided ‘vaccines are safe’ argument and how they never want to admit that vaccinations cause problems.
I think, I’m some cases they do. Not being able to claim under the vaccine damage scheme for under 2s gives the wrong message too it’s just too.......defensive ?

If they said actually there is a risk, it’s small but it’s there and we’re honest then had more of a balanced reasoning that yes there’s a risk but it’s a choice and presented it better that the scaremongering would die down

I’m theory I’m anti vax but I’ve vaccinated my children fully because I believe it’s a risk but a risk that is worth taking if that makes sense.
Some I spent to though are terrified and feel there’s such a brick wall up around balanced discussion and it makes things worse ?

When my granny was s little girl MOST of her class died of measles.
Can you even imagine having to deal with that as an 8 year old?!

Anti Vaxers are fucking idiots.

Yes 100% better education regarding illnesses and vaccination
I think for so long these illnesses were out of sight out of mind but with confidence in vaccines/the nhs low, the internet, parental choice being exercised and the way that sadly some doctors etc shut down any links between symptoms and recent vaccinations has caused the current situation

I do think there will be a shift in hearing ‘I know someone who was ill/died after a vaccination’ to ‘I know someone who was affected for life/died after ’ and that sadly this may be a cycle every few years

Something needs to change

and the way that sadly some doctors etc shut down any links between symptoms and recent vaccinations has caused the current situation

That's because temporal proximity does not imply causation. If a patient presents with symptoms that can't be tied in some rational way to a recent intervention the doctor is not going to connect them. Even if there is a suspicion that there's an adverse reaction, the patient can't be unvaccinated so they have to focus on treating whatever the current problem is.

There is a response in thinking to major outbreaks. I'm hoping the current measles outbreak causes New York to tighten up on vaccination requirements like California did after the Disneyland outbreak a few years ago.

Even if there is a suspicion that there's an adverse reaction

Then it still needs to be reported into the centralised regulatory database. Not dismissed.

Then it still needs to be reported into the centralised regulatory database.

I can't speak to what happens in the UK, but in the US it would be.

Reporting Adverse Events

“I also think herd immunity works better when people are immune through having the illness.”

Why do you think this? What evidence are you using?

I'm going to quote PinkDrink 's previous post:
I'm another one whose baby had a significant reaction, but who was made to feel I was silly, misinformed and over-anxious in linking it to the vaccine.

Took my 9 week old, entirely breastfed daughter to have her first DPT jab. By the evening a rash of little spots had sprung up on her forehead and spread down her cheeks. By the next morning her whole face was livid with it and it was all over her chest. Took her back to the clinic and the HV did that exact same thing that other posters have reported - wouldn't even let me finish speaking or listen to my concerns. She just kept repeating that it was 'a coincidence', and making me out to be a bit overwrought and silly. Eventually (making a big show of what a fuss I was making) she got one of the GPs to come and talk to me, who repeated the same line, equally patronisingly. It was nothing to do with the vaccine. A coincidence.

It felt utterly surreal, like I was being gaslighted.

I did go on to have all 3 of my children fully vaccinated, but with huge trepidation because I felt like I couldn't rely on the information that was out there, or on doctors to be honest about risk.

So those health professionals involved reported it to the database, did they? It doesn't sound like it.

Hmmm I am pro vaccination but I did develop an auto immune disease soon after having the rubella vaccine at age 16. Rubella infection or vaccination is associated with my condition but not proven or the only causal link. It did ruin/change my life to a large extent. My twenties were completely wiped out. I would welcome more honest discussion on possible effects of vaccination.

BTW I had measles before the vaccine was available at age 2 as did my sister who was 8 months old. We both survived unscathed and knew of no-one who died from it, it was treated as ‘normal’ in those days (born early 60s). Someone at our school died as a result of chicken pox though as a teen.

I haven’t given the MMR to either of my children. It seemed pointless as Dd had measles at 5 months and mumps at 2 years old. The only one she hasnt had is Rubella.

Ds has also had the lot whilst he was very young.

I have had everything going the same as Dp as we were encouraged to get this sort of stuff at a very young age so went to Measles parties and chicken pox parties etc.

The older you are the worse they are

I am usually an advocate of the more education the better.

However in this subject I genuinely believe people lose their sanity and give them a piece if evidence they will discount it or twist it.

Honestly if you took away the hard line on the fact that yes it's safe the majority of doubters would triumphantly crow that they had been proved right and vaccines were evil.

If you are a genuinely sensible rational parent you will do your research (I don't mean just googling). I also think If you're a rational person you will be aware that everything can have a side effect and make your decision based on information. If you have to be pandered to and spoon fed I doubt you are likely to be able to objectively balance further information.

So keep it simple ...its safe because frankly the alternative is far worse.

I find the mentality of anti vaxxers entitled to a disgusting level. Can you imagine what some mother's would do for a vaccine in countries where they are not freely available? If I was aware that other countries had a vaccine that would save my child's life for free and that stupid parents were ringing their hands over what if's and pseudo science scare mongering while I was watching my child die of measles....id be wondering how in hell they had manage to be a developed country.

I also think herd immunity works better when people are immune through having the illness

Not much use to immunity if you've already had the illness and all the risks and suffering therein - the whole point of herd immunity is to prevent people getting the illness.

I’m assuming that “illness induced herd immunity is better” is based on natural is best. All that lovely natural hearing loss, vision problems, encephalitis and death that’s the collateral damage......

It wouid essentially mean a return to pre-immunisation days, wouldn't it? The (surviving) adult populations n wouid be immune, but the toll on DC wouid be appalling

It's more effective because people who have had the illness are generally properly immune.

Having the vaccine doesn't automatically mean you are immune. Sometimes it doesn't work....as I said my son is not immune to diphtheria despite being vaccinated.

Don't get me wrong. I am not anti vaccine. I think they are very valuable and save lives.

I just don't think that calling worried parents stupid and shutting down debate about vaccines is the way to change people's minds.

“It's more effective because people who have had the illness are generally properly immune.”
Or possibly deaf, blind, mentally impaired or dead......

There are risks attached to any medication. You could give your child calpol and they could have an allergic reaction to the paracetamol and die.

It’s such a low risk it’s actually ridiculous and the benefits of being vaccinated far outweigh any of the slight risks. They are so slight, you have more chance of dying on the way to the doctors surgery either in a car crash or being run over. So no, anti vaxxers do not have a point. They just watch too much YouTube.

I also think herd immunity works better when people are immune through having the illness

I don’t think you’ve thought that through properly.

Catching a disease and surviving unscathed might give you better immunity than a vaccine, I don’t know.

But in order to get herd immunity, you need a minimum proportion of the population to be immune. That varies from disease to disease, but for most of the disease we vaccinate against, it’s between 80% to 95% of the population.

So to get natural herd immunity, you’d have to have, depending on the disease, between 80 - 95% of people infected with the actual disease.

Even if most people recover well, odds are on a population level, you’d still have large numbers of people either dying or permanently disabled as a result. That’s not really worth the benefit of the survivors having better immunity than the immunity provided by a vaccine.

It's more effective because people who have had the illness are generally properly immune.

But what's the point of supposedly better immunity after the fact? That's just shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Most of us have had chicken pox, we're now immune except for the unlucky few who don't get immunity from it (my friend's baby has had it 3 times already) but to get immune we had to get ill first, go through the week of suffering and scratching and mums/dads having to take time off work to look after us (me and my brothers had it one after the other, that's a lot of time off work for my mum). We are all at risk of developing shingles later on in life now (my brother has had it, it was horrible)

My daughter however has been vaccinated, she will most likely (she could be one of the unlucky few though) never get chicken pox, and so she won't go through that week of suffering and she won't be at risk of shingles. There's a chance she will get it, in which case she will then be in the same position as the rest of us are now with our oh so wonderful natural immunity. It's pretty clear to me which is the better option.

Natsku the NHS website explains why the CP vaccination is not offered as part of their childhood vax programme. One reason is their concern it could increase the incidence of CP and shingles in adults. There are specific individuals who benefit from a CP vaccination but a healthy child is not of them according to the NHS.

I completely agree with their position. I've yet to meet a child or adult who suffered anything beyond irritating spots and itching with CP. In the MN bubble it appears to be a life threatening illness.

My last paragraph was unclear and I meant to say I've never met anyone who had CP as a child who suffered anything more than mild irritation. Obviously catching it as an adult is much more serious.

The NHS is a bit isolated on this position. Both the CDC and the WHO recommend childhood Varicella vaccination. More current research also indicates that the risk of causing shingles in adults is less than originally thought.

[[https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/08/150811103555.htm Chickenpox vaccination does increase shingles cases, but mainly in young adults -
Study findings are in favour of universal childhood vaccination]]

The idea of exposure parties for diseases like measles is monumentally bad. Not only will it put those kids at risk of serious complications (about 25% will wind up in hospital) but you've now sent them out into the community as carriers, where they will infect 90% of the unvaccinated infants and immunocompromised individuals they meet. The "logic" behind this is that anti-vax parents want serologic proof of immunity so that their kids can attend school without getting vaccinated. So rather than protecting them and the community by vaccination, with a very low risk of complications and a public health benefit, they game the system and endanger their children while putting public health at risk and triggering outbreaks like we see now in the US. Bloody brilliant.

Classmate of my dd in primary had a terrible debilitating dose of CP. as did my dh who got it aged 40.
My US family are horrified that it isn't part of our vaccination programme.

I had CP as an adult. Felt awful and had to have a fortnight off work. American friend in his 40s who caught it at the same kids party had his first ever sick days in 20 years of working.

DS had had the CP vaccine (had lived in the US so he had to have it to attend nursery) had a very mild dose, a day or two off colour and little red spots that came and went without blistering.

My US family are horrified that it isn't part of our vaccination programme.

It does look odd from here. Most American HCP's assume that the NHS is just doing it to save money since hospitalizations from CP are quite rare. Seems a bit hard hearted though. It's really an awful thing to put the kids through.