I actually do think anti vaxxers have a point to a certain extent

[HairHereThere]

Like with ANY medication/treatment there are risks
I feel the government are letting us down with such a one sided ‘vaccines are safe’ argument and how they never want to admit that vaccinations cause problems.
I think, I’m some cases they do. Not being able to claim under the vaccine damage scheme for under 2s gives the wrong message too it’s just too.......defensive ?

If they said actually there is a risk, it’s small but it’s there and we’re honest then had more of a balanced reasoning that yes there’s a risk but it’s a choice and presented it better that the scaremongering would die down

I’m theory I’m anti vax but I’ve vaccinated my children fully because I believe it’s a risk but a risk that is worth taking if that makes sense.
Some I spent to though are terrified and feel there’s such a brick wall up around balanced discussion and it makes things worse ?

One of mine had a bad reaction as a baby and was advised not to have them again until when in school.
I think it's up to the parents what they decide to do, it's not their fault that another child might not be able to have it.

Not all children can have vaccines. They can be harmful to children who have diseases of their immune system such as HIV or those having chemotherapy for cancer. Previously, these children were protected because healthy children were all vaccinated and so a disease outbreak was prevented. Now that healthy children are no longer being vaccinated, these vulnerable children are at risk. The last thing a child on chemotherapy needs is a bout of measles. Vaccinating isn’t just about protecting your own child.

Not all children can have vaccines. They can be harmful to children who have diseases of their immune system such as HIV or those having chemotherapy for cancer. Previously, these children were protected because healthy children were all vaccinated and so a disease outbreak was prevented. Now that healthy children are no longer being vaccinated, these vulnerable children are at risk. The last thing a child on chemotherapy needs is a bout of measles. Vaccinating isn’t just about protecting your own child.

You're missing the point of the OP Steeve. I don't think anyone is disputing this well, I don't think so but I'm not reading back right now to double check What the OP is concerned about is the lack of communication about the very real (even if low risk) potential side effects and any discussion thereof being shut down.

Not unlike the shut down of discussion of side effects of contraception like the mirena and a dismissal that it can't possibly be that. In actual fact, I'm wondering if it's not linked.

Those pesky, overprotective mothers who can't possibly understand risk so we'll just shut down any conversation over it. I wonder what the response would be if a father were to question the side effects of a vaccination and if the health professionals would take the time to discuss it with them.

I've been thinking this precise thing recently OP, but I actually can't think of a better way for society to achieve the reduction/elimination of certain diseases than to corral their citizens fairly blindly into this course of action.

That sounds dramatic but I sort of mean it. And it makes me uncomfortable. I mean it's a tough sell isn't it? "Please vaccinate your kids even though they're not the immunocompromised ones and would have a good chance of either not catching or overcoming these diseases, but there is a slim chance of serious side effects for them personally".

It wouldn't be hard for an over-cautious or self-centred parent, given that choice, to make the "wrong" one. The problem is that if enough people make the wrong choice there sort of isn't any point ANY of us vaccinating at all, because herd immunity isn't going to work anyway!

So what do you do? You know everyone will be better off in time if everyone gets vaccinated, even though there will be a tiny number of adverse outcomes for otherwise healthy children, but if you actually give people a proper "choice" you're risking enough of them making the wrong one and the whole thing being doomed to failure. I can see why the line is, "everything's fine, get vaccinated", and actually I agree with it - it really is ALMOST COMPLETELY fine - or at least fine enough to be worth it, I think. But that's easy for me to say.

I don’t understand how people say that they don’t know about potential side effects. The most cursory of Googling will give you a list.

Please vaccinate your kids even though they're not the immunocompromised ones and would have a good chance of either not catching or overcoming these diseases, but there is a slim chance of serious side effects for them personally".

How about "let's not bother educating our kids because they might read something harmful"?
I'm immunocompromised. It's a social obligation. Like education. Or teaching children that hitting people is a bad thing.

Slightly bigger sample than Wakefield's, this may be the final word:

annals.org/aim/article-abstract/2727726/measles-mumps-rubella-vaccination-autism-nationwide-cohort-study

Does everyone here know about the mhra yellow card scheme?

If you or your child suffer any reaction you believe may be related to a drug or vaccine you must log it online. This is the main way data is collected in real life once trials are over. Massive under reporting means the medical profession remains in the dark about the real implications of some drugs.
The mhra acknowledge an issue with under reporting, especially on The part of GPs. This is why everyone must accurately record incidents, then realistic data can be recorded as to whether the vaccines do have real life issues and what they are.

I know of a baby who died of sepsis after developing an infection in the vaccination site. That said I am passionately pro-vaccination and my children have had and will continue to have all vaccinations available, just as I will continue to drive a car, take the train, walk down the street etc etc.

Most drugs cause some kind of side effect in some people. I agree OP that it would be helpful to get a leaflet about it for vaccines like you get inside Calpol or that you get when your kids get a flu jab.

It is always a case of weighing up the good against the bad and in the case of MMR, the good it does vastly outweighs any side effects that might occur. I've given my children all vaccines available. I'm glad because one of mine now takes immune suppressant drugs daily.

When I hear naturopath types bleating on about Big Pharma making loads of money off people whilst they're charging fuck loads of money for tumeric and coconut oil it boils my piss.

I bet the anti-vaxxers drive when tired, which is a far greater risk. Or cross a road on a red light. Or smoke, or go to McDonalds.

I'd support those running confined spaces refusing to accept those unvaccinated against what were common diseases, assuming there is a simple method of verification. For example airlines refusing to let you travel.

MrsleBon2, you can get sepsis from a splinter or an insect bite.

I can see why the line is, "everything's fine, get vaccinated", and actually I agree with it - it really is ALMOST COMPLETELY fine - or at least fine enough to be worth it, I think. But that's easy for me to say.

It is, isn't it? It's easy to say unless you know someone personally affected.

As I've said, I now have partial facial paralysis thanks to a vaccine so now I am questioning them when it never occurred to me to do so before. If I've had a reaction, does that mean my DC are more likely to? Is it just this one vaccine or all vaccines? Will it happen again/more severely if I have the booster? Are my DC better off risking the illness or the vaccine? How many people have had this reaction and did they react to a second vaccine? Answers to these are not easy to find because of the "herd needs vaccinating" (which I don't disagree with) doctrine. I have a friend with a child going through chemo. What's more important? The risk to her child or the risk to mine?

No. Just no. They don't 'have a point'. They have a bandwagon that has been proven to be based on utter falsehoods. Shouting louder doesn't make them right...

The million dollar kid. (By the time you add in the cost of medevac, rehab & followup care). Beware. The description of his illness is harrowing if you imagine that could have been your child.

The parents sutured his original wound at home. I don't know why that shocks me more than the refusal to get first or 2nd dose of DTaP.

*I guess coz I imagine the kid had no local painkiller for his stitches to be put in. You just know that's the type of family they are.

43 yr old woman previously in good health, put into a coma by measles. April 2019.

April 2019 death from pertussis, California.

Everybody says that because children don't get measles anymore generally , people have forgotten how awful it was. I think the opposite is also true- measles has become a huge child killer in peoples mind when most kids actually got it , were ill and then ok.
I also think herd immunity works better when people are immune through having the illness.

there is also the thought that now our children are vaccinated against so many things, their immune systems have nothing to fight against and so they turn against themselves-hence the massive rise in allergies etc

It's a tough one i think-as i said previously my kids are completely vaccinated despite adverse reactions but i am still a bit ....hmmmm

Threads like this make me so sad.

We need better science education in the curriculum, desperately. We need to teach people how to carry out proper research, and determine what is accurate and credible on the internet vs what is not.

Internet is such a massive but every day thing now I really feel like people need more education on it.

Bloody Hell. Even The Orange One has changed his tune.

‘I also think herd immunity works better when people are immune through having the illness.’

Well, when it went round and well over 90% of the population caught it, it was very effective in spreading across the herd, because no-one could opt out.

It’s why those of us born before 1970 aren’t included in the MMR catch up programme - we’re all assumed immune from the diseases because we all had them.

But the human cost - in terms of the avoidable deaths and permanent impairment, plus the longer duration of the mild illness (typically at least a week) compared to uncomplicated jab (maybe 48 hours, often less) - make it a harsh way, and the one which does greater harm

My youngest had a reaction to his first vaccinations, his temp shot up and wouldn’t go down with calpol. We ended up taking him to OOH and his pulse was over 200, they sent us in an ambulance to hospital and he was in overnight. It was scary but I look at the illnesses he was vaccinated against and they are so much scarier. He’s since had his second vaccinations (although a few weeks late) and will get his third lot soon. There is always a risk of adverse reactions with any intervention but the risks of the illnesses are so much worse.

4 deaths linked to active measles infection in UK 2007-2016. Wow, I thought there were none. There were other measles-linked deaths since 1992 but those deaths happened long after active infections. When the original measles infection caused a health problem that finally killed the person many years later.

measles stats are horrific.
not just deaths but also permanent damage to brain and other body parts.
not to mention (costly for the health services) hospital admissions due to severe ilness.