I feel upset, sick and cheated by Leaving Neverland

[Persimmonn]

I was one of those people who kept saying the men are out to make money. That there’s no evidence etc. But I finally watched the documentary yesterday and it’s hurt me a lot. I feel like I was lied to my whole life. I know it sounds so melodramatic and selfish but MJ was my idol growing up. I remember being 7 years old and dancing and singing his songs.

Now I feel sick to the core. If Wade Robson and James Safechuck are lying, then they’re incredibly good liars.

MJ was a paedophile.

I’m not picking apart your post bit by bit, there is too much wrong with it. It would take me ages.

Out of interest, in your case of CSA did you get what you perceive to be justice??

I see the MJ fantwats are out in full force as per usual.

I see the MJ fantwats are out in full force as per usual.

Would like this 28 page debate to end?

Are you saying if the fantwats leave the thread then the debate over MJ's paedophilia would be over? Don't quite grasp your question.

Is it possible to watch the documentary online anywhere?

I’m not picking apart your post bit by bit, there is too much wrong with it. It would take me ages

Well, you seem to have plenty of time to post the same nonsense over and over again. Mocking people for being ''triggered''. Just none to reply when people have ripped massive holes in the 'evidence' you mention to support MJ's innocence, or 'proof' that the accusers are liars.

'Most people are educated enough to see that 'evidence' does not have to come in the form of DNA to be compelling. And that the evidence against MJ is huge and it is damning. Trying to brainwash people into believing that the men's testimony is untrue by repeating lies about them over and over, and ignoring/ denying all the other evidence against MJ is not a tactic that will work for very long except perhaps on the very hard of thinking.

Out of interest, in your case of CSA did you get what you perceive to be justice??

Out of interest - what the fuck does that have to do with you? You are acting as though anyone who believes MJ was a paedophile has an agenda, when actually - the reverse is true. Anyone who chooses to ignore the vast amounts of evidence that he was a paedohphile, the paedophile apologists - they're the ones with the agenda. Either that, or they ( at best) lack critical thinking skills.

I personally don't know any CSA victims who believe in MJ's innocence, that in itself speaks volumes. I also think that the MJ 'superfans' have picked on the wrong people in these sorts of debates - most survivors of CSA have been shouted down with a load of untruths before but refused to back down or be quiet. They haven't allowed their voices to be silenced by those with an agenda, when their only one was wanting their truths to be believed. And thankfully, integrity has a habit of shining through, unlike lies and distortion.

For the record, I'm not a CSA survivor. I'm just not fucking stupid. I see a man who looks, acts, behaves and speaks like the text book profile of a paedophile. A proven liar, and a pretty convincing one at that. A man who is visibly and hugely damaged, for whatever reason. Who lives very much outside of the 'norms' of society. I see multiple accusations against him over the years, the last two so convincing that if acting, they would be Oscar worthy. I hear evidence of child porn, alarms, cover-ups, I hear multiple experts who believe he is guilty, his own sister give an account of the same. And I see him for what he was - a conniving, evil predator who conned and gaslighted people when he was alive, and continues to do so 10 years after his death. And ANYONE with half a brain cell, and no agenda, would see the same.

Your posts - repeating the same nonsense, the overuse and inappropriate use of 'triggered', ignoring any valid questioning of any 'evidence' you claim to have, and obvious attempt to 'win' the argument make you look like a complete and utter fool. A deranged one at that. You are not convincing anyone, just embarrassing yourself massively.

Well said Blueberrybell!

I'm not mocking anyone, merely making an observation. You sound awful aggressive over this, over something which is ultimately isn't likely to go anywhere.

There has been a few on other threads on this forum who have admitted to being CSA survivors and questioned these two. Not to mention the famous ones who have done it via social media.

From what I have seen, is it that far fetched to think that people who didn't get justice in their own cases of abuse are projecting their own experiences onto these two, hoping that they somehow get justice in the case against MJ? I don't think so, but I'm thick what do I know.

Paedophile apologist, please, stop being lazy. Do you see me defending any paedophiles on here? Because I disagree with you, you resort to name calling??? Is that what it's like on mumsnet? Last I checked, he was cleared of the cases against him. If you find me defending any convicted paedophiles, then feel free to pull me up. Because I don't believe these two men and see through their lies, doesn't mean I don't believe other people who think they are victims of abuse.

You want evidence? I post a couple of court transcripts that a small part of why I think they are lying. For example, James Safechuck was 27 in 2005. Can you imagine a 27 year old man telling his mum MJ was a bad man and nothing else come of it? James said that in the film you watched right, we watched the same thing right? MJ was about to go through the case when James was asked to testify and he refused. HIs Mum knew James was saying he was a bad man, you telling me no one thought the speak up and let the prosecution know the information James had just given his mother? He then claimed when asked by Oprah that the first he knew of the abuse that he had suffered was in 2013 when Wade spoke out. You saw that too right?

And that business with Wade and the Grand Canyon, his Mum testified that Wade was with them. We are not talking about a kid being asked to recall here, we are talking about his adult parent. She clearly said he was with them in 2005 in court papers. Yet in the film, she said he stayed with Michael and didn't go with them.

If you chose to make excuses for this and still believe them, then you say I'm the stupid one??? Please.

Sorry selected wrong file above. Guess you are right I am stupid!!

From what I have seen, is it that far fetched to think that people who didn't get justice in their own cases of abuse are projecting their own experiences onto these two, hoping that they somehow get justice in the case against MJ?

What, all of them? Don't be so ridiculous. You are just full of groundless theories, and have a very distorted view of what 'evidence' actually is.

Even if you think you can discredit one of the accusers (and I can see no evidence for this at all - your sources are dodgy and unclear, plus memory is notoriously unreliable when it comes to dates and times in witness testimony etc), what about the others? What are the chances of them ALL making it up, seriously. You know, if it walks and talks like a duck .........

Nice dashboard btw.

So you aren't going to respond to the other things I posted? Just a generic reply? Groundless theories, the media don't seem to think so as they are publishing it. I don't think court documents are groundless tittle tattle.

Thanks btw

Also, interesting to see Oprah has now wiped all the references and links to her interview with the men has now been wiped from her social media. It was there a few weeks ago. Hmmm.....Why?

You can only now see it through unofficial channels.

So you aren't going to respond to the other things I posted?

I already have. But why would anyone waste the time doing that given that you've continually not bothered replying to any posts on here questioning the credibility of your supposed 'evidence'.

he was cleared of the cases against him

Pointless arguing with anyone who can't even get this bit right. He was not 'cleared' of anything. At one point he did have the chance to go to trial and prove his innocence and be 'cleared' of the accusations. Anyone would think he'd jump at the opportunity to clear his name, wouldn't they? But instead he made a multi-million dollar payment to silence his accuser. After learning that his young accuser could correctly identify specific markings on his erect penis. Not suspicious at all that.

I don't think court documents are groundless tittle tattle.

If that's what you posted are that is. Regardless, discrepancies in times and dates are not in any way proof that the accusations are made up. Memory in relation to time and dates is notoriously unreliable, it is a known phenomenon. It in no way negates the accusations he, or ALL the others have made. There is far, far more proof that he WAS a paedophile than not.

God do you actually believe the crap you write? It still perfectly viewable on the Oprah Winfrey site here:

www.oprah.com/app/oprah-winfrey-presents-after-neverland.html

Just not in the UK because its a US media site under US syndication. Same way they can't view iplayer or Leaving Neverland on 4OD. If you switch your VPN on, as I just have, it is perfectly viewable.

I suppose you'll accuse Oprah, a well know victim of CSA of just putting it there because she's "triggered".

Can you imagine a 27 year old man telling his mum MJ was a bad man and nothing else come of it?

Yes. If it was my son and he told me that in confidence, I would not betray his trust in that way. I would respect whatever he chose to do. I think most decent parents would too.

She clearly said he was with them in 2005 in court papers. Yet in the film, she said he stayed with Michael and didn't go with them.

Afraid of the backlash she would get for letting her child stay with him? The sort of backlash she's getting at the moment for it?

Seriously - this is what you call 'evidence'? Ridiculous.

It still perfectly viewable on the Oprah Winfrey site here:

Now now, don't let any actual facts get in the way of the next little theory she dreams up.....

Cc you're clutching at straws now. The more you post, the more offensive you're being. You have no business asking people for their personal experiences of child abuse just so you can say 'aha! See you're triggered and projecting'.

Seriously - this is what you call 'evidence'? Ridiculous.

How is a signed testimony in court not evidence? The fact she might be scared of backlash is your made up theory on why she gave that evidence. If you are going to argue that then there is no hope.

Yes. If it was my son and he told me that in confidence, I would not betray his trust in that way. I would respect whatever he chose to do. I think most decent parents would too.

Seriously, your kid just tells you he has been abused, his abuser is about to go through a big court case, and you don't tell the truth for justice, you are bad parent if you let that happen IMO. I would every single day of the week and if my kid fell out with me then so be it. At least they would know one day why I did it, and James might be still on good terms with his Mum to this day if she had done that.

Pointless arguing with anyone who can't even get this bit right. He was not 'cleared' of anything. At one point he did have the chance to go to trial and prove his innocence and be 'cleared' of the accusations. Anyone would think he'd jump at the opportunity to clear his name, wouldn't they? But instead he made a multi-million dollar payment to silence his accuser. After learning that his young accuser could correctly identify specific markings on his erect penis. Not suspicious at all that.

Wrong. In 2005 he was CLEARED of ALL counts.

In 1993, he was faced with a civil case and a legal case, both surrounding the same accusations. MJ didn't pay anything to Chandler, his insurance did. This meant that the civil was settled allowing the focus on the criminal case. The Chandler family were free to give evidence in the criminal case despite the payment, but didn't. Why not, if it was your kid would you give evidence? They were only after the money and not the justice. Why wasn't the evidence surrounding the drawings enough to convict him, it would have been wouldn't it?

Now now, don't let any actual facts get in the way of the next little theory she dreams up.....

What else do you assume? Why does everyone who posts here have to be female, what other things have you pre-judged?

All the links to the video disappeared where they were previously posted saying they had been removed. Check the other thread if you don't believe me. Then the links to the video on her SOCIAL MEDIA (twitter etc) don't refer to it, where they did before.

What else do you assume? Why does everyone who posts here have to be female, what other things have you pre-judged?

Dear God, the irony. Laughable.

God this thread is a joke descending into petty arguments.....pathetic

Again, the irony. Its the ccmrob12 posts that are full of ridiculous claims and nonsensical evidence.

Time to move the troll farm on to somewhere more receptive to paedophile apologists.

There you go again. I have posted videos, facts and documents. You choose to ignore them because you only want to see one outcome from this. You’ve prejudged across all threads. Fortunately other places seem more open to the idea of two sides to this. All the people who dared to ask questions don’t post anymore, I wonder why.

all threads :)

Out of interest, in your case of CSA did you get what you perceive to be justice??

I don't discuss my experience with abuse apologists I'm afraid

There has been a few on other threads on this forum who have admitted to being CSA survivors and questioned these two. Not to mention the famous ones who have done it via social media

Yet I'm assuming you believe these people/celebs? But not Wade and Jimmy? Why?

is it that far fetched to think that people who didn't get justice in their own cases of abuse are projecting their own experiences onto these two, hoping that they

You're so right. Silly little survivors thinking they can get justice via someone else it couldn't just be because the MJ case is fucking compelling could it?

Do you see me defending any paedophiles on here?

Don't be obtuse now. And seeing as you only believe the convicted peadophiles o am assuming that the 97% of sex offenders who get away with it are just victims of liars, right? Logic would dictate that? Especially with such an infallible justice system

Can you imagine a 27 year old man telling his mum MJ was a bad man and nothing else come of it?

Yes, I can. THAT's WHAT GROOMING IS!!!! Do you not understand grooming?! Because if you don't you have no place on this thread!

You telling me no one thought the speak up and let the prosecution know the information James had just given his mother?

All he said was that he's a bad man and he refused to say any note. Do you have any idea how little regard a woman going on the stand would be saying simply "my son says he's a bad man"? The prosecution wouldn't dream of calling her. It's too vague with too little detail. He'll, people who do have details don't get called if the prosecution think the jury will dislike them.

He then claimed when asked by Oprah that the first he knew of the abuse that he had suffered was in 2013 when Wade spoke out. You saw that too right?

If you understood grooming you'd understand that, whilst he knew it was wrong what happened to him, the full and catastrophic impact often takes longer to be felt. Take it from someone who knows.

And that business with Wade and the Grand Canyon, his Mum testified that Wade was with them. We are not talking about a kid being asked to recall here, we are talking about his adult parent. She clearly said he was with them in 2005 in court papers. Yet in the film, she said he stayed with Michael and didn't go with them

So what? What does this prove? I can't remember the details of the holiday I took last month but she's expected to remember one 20 years later?

And I don't understand what your meme is meant to prove? Wade admits to lying on the stand. What's your point?

I feel I'm wasting my time with a demented super fan but I'll ask again as you haven't answered - if this was your neighbour behaving like this, inviting little boys round for sleepovers, building a park on his garden to lure them, having self portraits of naked boys around him on display, would you dismiss this as well? Or is Jackson speshul because you like his music therefore he can't be an abuser?

I really truly hope you never have had any experience with CSA survivors as you claim. Because you either think powerful men can't abuse or you don't think grooming is "a thing".