I feel upset, sick and cheated by Leaving Neverland

[Persimmonn]

I was one of those people who kept saying the men are out to make money. That there’s no evidence etc. But I finally watched the documentary yesterday and it’s hurt me a lot. I feel like I was lied to my whole life. I know it sounds so melodramatic and selfish but MJ was my idol growing up. I remember being 7 years old and dancing and singing his songs.

Now I feel sick to the core. If Wade Robson and James Safechuck are lying, then they’re incredibly good liars.

MJ was a paedophile.

@Gunpowder

I haven’t mentioned the fact that they originally defended him in this thread at all. Certainly not repeatedly. Trying to debate on here is like banging your head unless you agree with the masses. I know how Lyin feels.

I find astounding that Robson has changed his story at least four times since he made the complaint in 2013. Who does that is they are telling the truth?? Why do you think he has done that Gunpowder? But it doesn’t matter because some on here think MJ is guilty no matter how many times they change their story. There will be some that want them to right so much that they will make excuses no matter what is put before them.

But it did and does. It’s exactly what happened in the chandler case. His dad, who only cared about the money and not about the alleged abuse his son suffered. Maybe the guilt of that is why he took his own life

In the US, criminal cases are decided beyond reasonable doubt, but civil cases are awarded on the balance of probabilities. So it's fairly common for victims of sexual assault and abuse to sue because they have a far greater chance of getting justice.

I find astounding that Robson has changed his story at least four times since he made the complaint in 2013

Which four accounts did he give and how did they differ? I ask as I haven't heard until now hat he'd done this

Spam, why are you so determined to look at the 'worst case scenario' of what somebody posts? I wasn't - i was just interested in your novel ideas on sentencing victims alongside their victims.

MJ superfans are a touchy lot!

*alongside their abusers, sorry.

But they have no chance of getting justice if they just take the money and run. Even after taking the money in their civil case, the we free to give evidence in the 1993 criminal case but they didn’t. Bit odd that, I wouldn’t let that chance pass if it we me or any other reasonable person.

Wade Robson has amended the court documents four times since he made his first complaint 1993, each time something was challenged. It just doesn’t sit right.

But they have no chance of getting justice if they just take the money and run

Well I don't think that's for you to decide. A civil win is a sign that they are believed and have been listened to. Look at Taylor Swift who sued a radio DJ who sexually assaulted her. She sued him for $1, and won. It was about justice for her but she'd have been well within her right to sue him for millions.

I wouldn’t let that chance pass if it we me or any other reasonable person.

Well good for you, you don't speak for victims and you certainly don't dictate what makes them feel better about their abuse. Why do people feel people wanting money are less likely to be telling the truth? If you had an accident that meant you couldn't work and lost money no one would question you taking legal action, so why do they do this WRT sexual crimes?

Wade Robson has amended the court documents four times since he made his first complaint 1993, each time something was challenged. It just doesn’t sit right

What court documents? What kind of "court document" can be amended four tones in the future when the trial in 1993 never even went to court? Bear in mind he was 10 in 1993 - was he a money grabbing liar then too?

Sorry that was a typo, I clearly meant 2013 when he made his first claim that he suddenly remembered he was abused.

I think most normal people would want to see their abusers behind bars than be rich. Are you saying you would take money if given the choice over seeing your children’s abuser banged up? As I said I am not against the courts handing out compensation, but not over a guilty verdict being issued first.

Michael Jackson is dead, what do you suggest anyone do about that?

Ccrob you sound like a deeply unpleasant person tbh. Not just your beliefs but the way you talk about CSA. If there is a whiff of possibility these boys were abused by MJ (and let's face it there's more than a whiff) they deserve a great deal more sensitivity than you seem capable of giving. I really hope you aren't a parent.

@BonnesVacances Don't be such a snowflake. You don't know me or my background and experiences of CSA, so don't pass judgement on my overall beliefs based on this one case. I happen to believe there is a 0% chance these two were abused, hence me talking the way I do about this case.

If you chose to believe them despite such obvious holes in their stories to date then that's up to you. But I think you will find more and more of their lies pointed out over the coming weeks/months rather than more and more of their story backed up.

You've been played, not only by them, but by this documentary. I was cleverly designed to push buttons in people to stir up support and get them relevant and back in the public eye. The self proclaimed 'master of deception' has got you....

BonnesVacances Don't be such a snowflake

You still sound deeply unpleasant.

You don't know me or my background and experiences of CSA, so don't pass judgement on my overall beliefs based on this one case.

And yet you've been quite happy to tell people on this thread multiple times that the reason they think there is a very good chance the boy's stories are true is because they have been sexually abused themselves and therefore "triggered" by it, even though many of them, myself included, have told you that that is not the case. You are a massive hypocrite. Oh, and we can see the sock puppets that have been assembled.

Please, there are plenty of people who I know in person and have read online who are themselves abuse survivors who don’t believe them as well. They have just observed the film objectively and drawn their own conclusions from the facts.

I will admit it was designed to trigger the kind of emotional response seen on here, so it’s hardly surprising so many people have been triggered by this. That’s all they are playing off.

Any CSA survivors on here that categorically don't believe them and think those 2 men are lying and that it was all perfectly healthy and normal to sleep with an adult man?

Anyone seen or heard any others?

make yourself known now please so you can shore up ccmrob12's weird certainty that 2 men they have never met are lying.

tumbleweed

@ccmrob12 what facts have you decided Male MJ 100% innocent because you've been presented with many that he was quite clearly a massive nonce and you're ignoring it? What's your agenda? Makes me wonder what kind of people are themselves and what they get up to who are so quick to defend the world's most obvious peadophile.

I still don't believe if your childless neighbour, for example, built a playground in his back yard with the specific purpose of luring young boys and had sleepovers and naked pictures of boys in his home you would be defending him and calling his accusers liars. But hey MJ had good music so he can't be a peadophile right. ThAt MaKES SenSe

Also I don't think you understand what the word "triggered" means so stop embarrassing yourself by using it so greatly out of context

I know, why does she keep saying that? :/

calpop there has been more than one person over threads on here who posted calling these two out and who said they were abuse survivors themselves. You’ve probably ran out them out the threads now as they haven’t posted for a bit.

I would say triggered is the perfect word to use. This film has triggered response on social media like nothing else for a long time as well as on here. It’s exactly how the word should be used imho.

The fact that goal posts keep moving, the fact the waited until they were sure they couldn’t be sued for liabel, the clear and obvious holes in the story, court testimonies blow the most recent version of events out of the water, other witness testimony of people who were there, etc etc. He was meant to have spent nights with 1000s of kids apparently yet only five come forward and say he abused them. If he was such a serial abuser would there be a lot more, even more so with the me too movement? Tells me it’s the few who are wanting to make a quick buck and trying push the buttons of the public to gain sympathy to their financially driven cause.

Are you forgetting Wade Robson called himself the master of deception and was quoted that this case would make him relevant again.

That’s part of why I am convinced of his innocence. I fact still remains, I cannot be anymore sure of his innocence as you can be about his guilt, as much as you like to think you can by calling him a nonce. Only those that were there will know for sure. It’s the all the above that gives me confidence in the fact to speak out in his defence.

Do you have any new evidence to share that makes that disproves any of the above?

I would say triggered is the perfect word to use. This film has triggered response on social media like nothing else for a long time as well as on here

Triggered is actually a word used in MH terms when certain events, sounds, smells etc "trigger" memories of trauma and is an important word for abuse survivors. So there's a certain crassness in you using it in this thread to mock people

The fact that goal posts keep moving, the fact the waited until they were sure they couldn’t be sued for liabel

They can be sued for libel by MJ's family if they can prove that
A. They're lying, and
B. Their lies have a detrimental impact, financial or otherwise, on the family

the clear and obvious holes in the story

Such as? I haven't see any

court testimonies blow the most recent version of events out of the water

What does this mean? Whose testimonies? And which events do they allegedly blow out of the water?

other witness testimony of people who were there

Funny as I've only ever heard testimonies from people who can attest to MJ being a peadophile. People who saw him modest children etc. So unless another person was there 100% of the time when Wade and Jimmy were, you cannot give a testimony to say something definitely didn't happen. This isn't how the law works

He was meant to have spent nights with 1000s of kids apparently yet only five come forward and say he abused them

"Only" five (although I'm aware of at least six who've spoken publicly)? MJ must be one very unlucky fella for so many unrelated boys to have exactly the same complaint put against him, no? I mean what are the chances?!

If he was such a serial abuser would there be a lot more, even more so with the me too movement?

So how many accusers would it take for you to be convinced by? 10? 100? You think there couldn't possibly be some who haven't/won't come forward?

Interestingly though I think there's still a huge stigma around men and boys reporting sexual abuse. Especially straight men who've been abused by men. And when you look at the abuse the two poor men in the documentary have received is it any wonder people won't come forward?

Tells me it’s the few who are wanting to make a quick buck and trying push the buttons of the public to gain sympathy to their financially driven cause.

How much money have they made again? Oh yeah, none 🙄

Are you forgetting Wade Robson called himself the master of deception and was quoted that this case would make him relevant again

So what? How does this mean he wasn't abused? As I've said through this thread, abuse victims don't have to be sobbing, angelic perfect people. Abuse victims can be vindictive, deceptive, unpleasant. Not that I personally think Wade is any of these, but some do and they think he can't be a victim because of these alleged traits.we know perpetrators don't fit a certain box - let's start understanding that victims don't either.

But if you are going down that toad - Jackson was a tremendous liar as well. He lied about having cosmetic surgery and went to his grave swearing he only had surgery on his nose to make him sing better we're not blind FFS. He also lied countlessly about exactly how "his" children came about and his relationships with the mothers of his children.

So we have a proven liar vs maybe a liar. Get you believe the only one you're a fan of 🧐

I fact still remains, I cannot be anymore sure of his innocence as you can be about his guilt, as much as you like to think you can by calling him a nonce

Well I can because of the overwhelming evidence against him

Only those that were there will know for sure. It’s the all the above that gives me confidence in the fact to speak out in his defence.

You can say the same for every single crime that takes place, yet we have a justice system that allows us to make a clear judgement despite not being there. On this basis do you also think Saville's victims are liars?

Do you have any new evidence to share that makes that disproves any of the above?

This has been shared countless times but I'll do it again. It contains links and citations to the aforementioned overwhelming evidence.

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeavingNeverlandHBO/comments/b01mq3/megathreadtheecaseagainsttmichael_jackson/

Latoya Jackson came out accusing her father of molesting her when she was a child. Then the family accused her of being paid to lie. What a fucked up family. I will say one thing its a shame they left it so long and not come forward sooner. He should have been stopped a long time ago.

They were all abused when they were children most probably one way or another. Sometimes abusers grow up to be abusers themselves.

I guess we are going to go around and around in circles over this, all the people who were daring to challenge the convention in this thread and point out the other side have either given up or been chased off the thread.

Triggered is actually a word used in MH terms when certain events, sounds, smells etc "trigger" memories of trauma and is an important word for abuse survivors. So there's a certain crassness in you using it in this thread to mock people

That is the traditional use for it yes, but more recently it is used to describe someone who has been upset or had their feelings hurt. Admittedly, more a slang use, but still but I find it opt.

Such as? I haven't see any

Apart from the obvious more recent examples, the fact that in the documentary Wade says he stayed with Michael when his family first came over as they went off to the Grand Canyon, yet in 2005 his Mum testified Wade went with them to Grand Canyon. It can't be both. Also, Wade said it was just him and Michael at times he said he was abused, he his sister testified on sworn statements to she she was with them. Also, this was at the time Wade was defending him and 'loved' him, why would his sister lie if it weren't true?

Funny as I've only ever heard testimonies from people who can attest to MJ being a peadophile.

So you haven't seen the testimonies of the McCulkin brothers, Corey Feldman, Taj Jackson, Stephanie Mills, Emmanuel Lewis, Mark Lester....hmmm doubt it.

"Only" five (although I'm aware of at least six who've spoken publicly)? MJ must be one very unlucky fella for so many unrelated boys to have exactly the same complaint put against him, no? I mean what are the chances?!

Quite high when you are as rich as him and also as vulnerable. Not that I don't blame himself for making himself vulnerable, of course he didn't help himself. But still, his money would have allowed people try.

How much money have they made again? Oh yeah, none

I'm not talking about how much they have made, I am talking about how much they stand to by suing the estate. Always about money.

You can say the same for every single crime that takes place, yet we have a justice system that allows us to make a clear judgement despite not being there. On this basis do you also think Saville's victims are liars?

We he went to court, all this overwhelming evidence was shown, and yet he was still cleared on all 14 counts. Those naked pictures alone would have been enough to put him behind bars if they were as bad as claimed. Saville's case is completely different to this. His victims didn't know each other and there were a lot more. They couldn't have possibly known about the detail of each others stories making it far more compelling and credible evidence.

I don't think anything will convince you and move you away from your stance on this, so I think this conversation is done now. I have far better things to do with my time and I am sure you have. People will believe what they want to on this and the debate will rage on.

That is the traditional use for it yes, but more recently it is used to describe someone who has been upset or had their feelings hurt. Admittedly, more a slang use, but still but I find it opt

Do you mean apt? And don't you see how the "new" meaning is offensive to trauma survivors and minimises their experience?

the fact that in the documentary Wade says he stayed with Michael when his family first came over as they went off to the Grand Canyon, yet in 2005 his Mum testified Wade went with them to Grand Canyon. It can't be both.

What!! You're SO right! Because our childhood memories are infallible and we remember every single date and circumstance FWIW I am a CSA survivor, I know things that happened but can only vaguely pinpoint dates and times. For example for one incident I know I was abused when we had overnight guests. I think those guests were my mum's cousins but I can't be 100% certain. It doesn't mean I'm lying. It's extremely common for anyone, especially those impacted by trauma, to have fuzzy memories

Also, Wade said it was just him and Michael at times he said he was abused, he his sister testified on sworn statements to she she was with them.

Maybe it's both? Maybe she was there sometimes and others not.

So you haven't seen the testimonies of the McCulkin brothers, Corey Feldman, Taj Jackson, Stephanie Mills, Emmanuel Lewis, Mark Lester....hmmm doubt it.

Those people have only said MJ didn't abuse them. They can't say for sure he didn't abuse other people, unless they were all there for every nanosecond of Wade and Jimmy's visits to Neverland. Which they weren't.

Quite high when you are as rich as him and also as vulnerable. Not that I don't blame himself for making himself vulnerable, of course he didn't help himself. But still, his money would have allowed people try

But it's funny how he's not the only rich "vulnerable" man in the world but he's the only one (along with the likes of Weinstein, Saville, Spacey etc) who has had accusations made about them. Bit of a coincidence ain't it?

I'm not talking about how much they have made, I am talking about how much they stand to by suing the estate. Always about money

Why should t they get money? MJ's actions caused trauma, MH issues, and no doubt hit them financially for various reasons. Why shouldn't they get money? Do you object to the people who sued Alton Towers after losing their limbs? If not why not?

Anyway They have tried, and sadly, failed to sue - not because of the credibility of their stories but because the US has a pitifully low statute of limitations when it comes to sex crimes.

We he went to court, all this overwhelming evidence was shown, and yet he was still cleared on all 14 counts.

So was OJ. So are the vast majority of rapists. Not guilty DOES NOT mean innocent.

Those naked pictures alone would have been enough to put him behind bars if they were as bad as claimed.

Well this is what he paid his very expensive legal team for, to get them stricken from evidence.

Saville's case is completely different to this.

How? Both powerful sexual predators who preyed on children.

His victims didn't know each other and there were a lot more. They couldn't have possibly known about the detail of each others stories making it far more compelling and credible evidence.

I'm not sure MJ's victims knew each other but they sure had similar stories. And Saville didn't set up a huge playground in his background to lure vulnerable victims.

So you are telling me that both Jimmy and Wade - despite being unable to sue due to the statute of limitations - got their various family members (who all have a lot at stake) to buy into a complex lie, making up and then reciting stories about dozens of times and places, for literally no benefit to themselves...and they all happened to deliver Oscar winning performances when reciting these complex lies?

OR...is it more likely that a grown man who invited young boys (never girls) he didn't know into his bed, had self portraits of naked boys dressed as cherubs surrounding him, dozens of materials with pictures or drawings of baked boys in them, paid millions to make his many accusers go away, had one child describe his erect penis in detail, and actually built a theme park in his back garden named after a place where parentless boys who never grow up go to find solace - and pegged himself as the leader of these boys (Peter Pan) - and is a notorious liar...is actually a peadophile?

I mean come the fuck on, anyone with half a brain can exercise logic if nothing else and see him for what he is. Sorry if it's hard to see him as anything other than the "king of pop" - but to deny the obvious is just plain stupid