I’m yet to meet a leaver

[ScafellPoke]

Or have I but they’re just too ashamed to admit it?

I've met people in reality who dont want to share how they voted as they get labeled as this or that and accused of thinking certain ways.

Looking at the results map I think leavers are easy to find. The only remainers I know are family members married to EU nationals.

Well Madge if you want to blame the Normans who invaded Ireland in 1169, be my guest. How far back do you want to take the blame for colonisation? I can't say that I feel any guilt about what the Normans or the Angevins did; neither do I feel guilt about what happened before I was born in the 60s as there was nothing I could have done about it. I can be sorry something happened, but guilt? No.

Furthermore, you seem to want to apply the standards and social mores of today to the past, which you cannot do, as those didn't exist then.

As to stockpiling in Europe, I will be back to the UK before March 29th to make a trip to Sainsbury to make sure I have enough of the important things to keep me going til I move back to the UK for good in October, so yes, I suppose I am stockpiling tea bags, cheddar and Marmite.

I'm not blaming you scaryteacher but if you actually are a teacher you will know that stuff happened before you were born that affects you. Or it certainly affects people in NI. Like the partition of Ireland.

Caring, the UK was a net contributor to the EU budget but this does not mean that it is not a net beneficiary. The UK benefitted enormously from being in the Single Market. Companies such as Honda, Nissan, Toyota etc could base their factories here and then service all of Europe. The same for banks, broadcasters, airlines, pharmaceutical companies etc. The UK was fantastically successful at attracting companies to be their EU base benefitting from tax revenues and employment worth many times the budget contribution.

All this is now starting to unravel.

There’s complaints about single market rules, but a lack of specific about which rules people object to. Is it environmental standards, no hormones in beef, equality legislation, clean beaches?? Not very clear.

We paid money for having common standards and a say in rules. We will ‘take back control’ of tedious bureaucracy and increase red tape ten-fold due to the need to fill in forms for almost half our exports when we didn’t before.

I don’t see any bullying by the EU. It simply is saying that if you don’t want to be part of the club, then you don’t get the benefits. And that Britain needs to respect international peace treaties.

And no, next to no economists think we will be better off on WTO terms. The only one, Patrick Minford, also notes that the UK’s manufacturing and agriculture sectors will be devastated.

But anyway, these are rational arguments. Surely, it’s much better just to say that we won WWII by ourselves so why do we need other countries??

Scary - happy to absolve the UK of guilt for colonisation and Empire, if the UK also absolves Germany of guilt for WWII and stops talking about WWII/Dunkirk all the times

I find this thread odd because I'm not the most sociable of people and yet I've met plenty of leavers and plenty of remainers. During the referendum I was working in a smallish arts organisation. It was a fairly even mix and both sides had very good reasons for voting the way they did. On the whole the more senior staff were remainers which was understandable as the arts obviously greatly benefits from a close relationship with Europe. The leavers tended to be those in the more physical jobs, precarious employment, less well paid. Many of them had had fairly hard lives. What really didn't help the remainers arguments was the waxing lyrical about all the lovely times they'd had travelling in Europe, on Erasmus schemes etc. Not that they're wrong but it's clearly going to alienate those who could never afford to travel or benefit from those sorts of things.
The remainers were vastly less understanding of the leavers and quite rude on occasion. I do wonder if that swayed any who voted leave and who were undecided at all.

My point surferjet was that pointing at groups is ok or it isn't . You can't be hurt that Brexit supporters are grouped together in one way and then claim it's the 'liberals' doing it.

scaryteacher
Politics is in a mess in other countries but that tends to be their historical and cultural norm. Politics in the U.K. is stable and unchanging this level of histrionics and extremism - on both sides - is unusual if not unprecedented.
Brexit has caused this.

Not all companies are fighting to leave - yes, but enough are. We should be attracting companies not being relived only a few (?) are going. And after Brexit this number will increase. It is irrelevant if it is 1, 100 or 1000 no companies should be leaving.
Brexit has caused some (potentially many) companies to leave.

The Troubles aren't only of British making? Well who the hell else is to blame? We are the ones backing out of a successful international treaty.

The ROI are making plans, they are being put to considerable time, trouble and expense because of us. Our selfish decision is having a negative impact on them.

The political fallout and the difficulty negotiating was entirely predictable and was indeed predicted by many.

You make many predictions about the EU I am not going to discuss hypotheticals when we are up to our necks in an entirely avoidable fiasco. We are up Shit Creek and we have lost our paddle, explaining that you think some other possible place, may possibly be worse is a straw man argument.

You don't understand why leavers aren't MORE VOCAL? A joke, of course?

I can point out the hypocrisy of this group yes.

I can point out the hypocrisy of this group yes

Which group? MN? Remainers?

Are you under the impression they're a single entity all with the same thoughts?

@surferjet , you are a regular on these threads often with inflammatory statements. Playing the victim is a bit rich, really.

I’m not playing anything - I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of the caring liberals.
You claim to care about the poor whilst simultaneously calling them thick idiots.
Which is why you don’t like me posting on brexit threads, because I point out the obvious.

The partition of Ireland is ancient history, we can’t ever know how it came to pass, Romans were involved, maybe merovingians? Luckily it has no bearing whatsoever on our lives today

Everyone I know (and some I don't know very well) where I live - very deprived area, mostly council estate, very high unemployment - are leavers. My family are all leavers as is my dp and all his family. I'm the only person i know apart from the odd work colleague who voted remain. So they say anyway.

Madge. The partition of Ireland is not ancient history - it was 1921 and there are still people alive before it was partitioned. My grandfather was in his 20s when it happened and was initially incredulous that anyone could think of declaring 10 miles away a different country.

It was imposed on Ireland by the British to create an enclave for British settlers. The divisions caused by that criminal act still reverberate today.

The sheer ignorance of UK citizens over their own history is breath-taking.

All that is taught in schools seems to be Romans, Tudors and WWII.

Most people I know who are leavers don’t discuss brexit these days because so many people seem so depressed about it in a weirdly gratifying way. I don’t want to steal their bleeding heart thunder by starting a proper discussion. Obviously I don’t join in, can’t bring myself to behave that way but I don’t burst their bubble either. Occasionally I sank and point out disturbing their emotional attachment to a political system is but usually I just smile uncomfortably and let them catastrophise.

I’m not a full on leaver by the way. I am a fence sitter who voted leave. A year earlier I would have voted remain today I would definitely vote leave, next year my view may be different but at the same time I don’t think it’s a big deal either way. It’s not like the eu is a good system per se but it is definitely beneficial in some ways and leaving is a pain but on the other hand it’s not a terrible system either, the only thing that is really that bad about it is it’s failure to reform/how it is drifting further and further away from its initial goal.

Sorry, I thought I was quite obviously taking the piss out of scaryteacher and her post disavowing any British responsibility for what has happened in Ireland and Northern Ireland even this century because Anglo Saxons or something

Please don’t get aerated x

I refer you to her post:

scaryteacher

Well Madge if you want to blame the Normans who invaded Ireland in 1169, be my guest. How far back do you want to take the blame for colonisation? I can't say that I feel any guilt about what the Normans or the Angevins did; neither do I feel guilt about what happened before I was born in the 60s as there was nothing I could have done about it. I can be sorry something happened, but guilt? No.

Not obviously a pisstake. Read quite horribly and I reported it.

Im old. I looked at the assorted political rabble urging me to vote Leave and asked myself, given my knowledge of their political beliefs and histories, whether there were any other situations in which I would trust them. Absolutely not, not one of them. So I voted remain.

@surferjet

I’m not playing anything - I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of the caring liberals
While being hypocritical yourself! Oh it's terrible referring to Brexit supporters as one group you horrible liberals.

You claim to care about the poor whilst simultaneously calling them thick idiots
The poor did not overwhelmingly vote Brexit. As plenty of people have pointed out on this thread many of the 'educated' middle class voted Brexit.

Which is why you don’t like me posting on brexit threads, because I point out the obvious
We love it when you post it gives us a chance to point out you are wrong.

I am a leaver and the vast majority of people I associate with are also leavers. I have encountered few remainers, other than my DP!