I’m yet to meet a leaver

[ScafellPoke]

Or have I but they’re just too ashamed to admit it?

poor areas are effectively disenfranchised in the U.K. FPTP means we have to appeal to middle Britain and the poor are disposable.

Have you been to the home counties?? Not many poor people there but you could stick a donkey with a blue rosette up as Tory candidate and it would walk it. I agree with you about FPTP disenfranchising people but that does not only apply to the poor.

DippyAvocado I live in the north but in a strong conservative constituency. Electorally I am disenfranchised but I can make my voice heard in lots of other ways. The rich and the middle class have plenty of ways to make their voices heard : Employers organisations, pressure groups, interest groups, etc.

In hard core working class areas the structures neededto make your voice heard are not in place. Trade unions long the voice of the working class are becoming the preserve of those employed by the government and the middle classes. The most successful strike action recently was by the UCU - the university and college union.

I can make my voice heard in a variety of ways - a university education means you can speak the language of power. If you are brought up in a predominantly working class area where education is not valued you are unheard and unreported.

As a country we need to make educating and education in poor areas an absolute priority Sure Start Centres were a start and what has happened to them?

Windowsareforcheaters - where did you get the info that civil servants are getting Ministers to initial paperwork?

I am a fairly senior civil servant and that's not happening in my Dept, nor the Ines I work closely with. There are clear lines of accountability with the civil service getting a written (normally emailed) response to all advice (called submissions).

If you're talking about a Ministerial Directon (which is the nuclear option fir us civil servants) this is a formal letter from the relevant Minister to the Departments Permanent Secretary. This is rarely done - and only where the Minister want to give an order that the civil service have advised against, or goes against Treasury guidance.

Is there anything more valuable than being the voice that changes the view of the naive or the innocent, those that that are surrounded by those "idiots" that are irredeemable and rarely will hear the other side of the discussion?

There is nothing "naive" and "innocent" about someone who very openly admits they voted Leave because "there's too many Pakistanis". Except they actually didn't say Pakistani, they used a diminutive thereof, popularly used as a racial slur.

Or the person who voted Leave because they thought it would mean no French teams in their particular sporting competition of choice.

Not worth a jot of my time.

JacquesHammer

I didn't say that those people were naive or innocent, I said those around them that may not have the chance to hear a different view.

I'm looking forward to leaving the Undemocratic EU
and participating in the elections for the British House of Lords
and for the WTO
oh wait

Live in a cheap as fuck part of Hull so told constantly I should be a leaver- in truth I cant think of any I know. Seem much more likely to be rich retired types.

And its a fact that a significant amount of leavers are badly educated and racist. The fact British people are so scared to say these things as they are is why we end up with this shitty version of blurry compromise politics.

It is not a fact at all. It's just the usual bs put about by remainers because the vote didn't go their way.

www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/leave-voters-admit-they-are-racist-in-new-research-a3646421.html

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-education-higher-university-study-university-leave-eu-remain-voters-educated-a7881441.html

Except it is actually true. I now you lot confuse your opinion as being as strong as facts, but there we are.

check out the Martin Selmayr promotion in the Eu
www.politico.eu/article/martin-selmayr-jean-claude-junker-commission-slammed-over-selmayr-promotion/
check out the way Angela Merkel unilaterally made the decision to let well over a million and still ongoing undocumented young men into Europe and expected all the other European countries to take their share without prior consultation and with absolutely no thought as to how this would affect it's citizens both now and in the future,. Check out Junker and his alcohol consume and think about his massive power in the Eu . There is NO democracy in the EU. This should scare us all.

You hear none of this from the 'educated' remainers while the uneducated leavers that have made themselves aware of what's going on are vilified. You couldn't make it up!
.

And you vote for the House of Lords and the Head of State ....no, wait a minute.

I wouldn't vote for them either

Ahhh, alternative facts. Another great US import.

Patroclus, that Independent article makes no sense. What does it mean by saying that going to university was the 'predominant factor'? Older people tend not to have gone to university in the same numbers as younger people, so it seems to me this study is confusing correlation with causation, since other stats have indicated that very young voters are likely to be remain voters and older voters in favour of leave. Also their conclusion is that if 3 % more people had gone to university the UK probably wouldn't be leaving the EU, which is woolly at best. Admittedly, the Independent could just have written that article badly, but I'm not convinced.

As for the Evening Standard, it was a survey of 2220 people. Not certain that's representative of the millions of people who voted. Even so, that figure indicated that 34% of leavers were racially prejudiced, along with 18% of remainers. These figures are up from some years and down from others (peaked at 39% in 1989).

The only thing I can conclude is that voting should be compulsory when the result will be do far reaching.

Those who say the majority won. Leave won by 52% to 48%. That’s hardly a majority.

I really would love to hear the reasons why educated people voted for leave and then I can hopefully feel more optimistic about it all. And please don’t say it’s too complex. I’m an openminded person, just want to hear actual and well thought out reasons.

Patroclus

there are no real "facts" in your links. One is poor statistics and the other an opinion piece.

But here is a thought, how many academics voted remain because their funding is from the EU and not through some sort of altruism?

TheRealBoswell
Those who say the majority won. Leave won by 52% to 48%. That’s hardly a majority.

WTAF.

Is this from the gove rules of math where every school will be above average?

I voted leave so did a lot of my family but dp votes remain

really would love to hear the reasons why educated people voted for leave

just look to my post. The EU is undemocratic and one powerful person such as Merkel has made a unilateral decision that will have a massive effect on the whole of Europe. Just imagine going forward there might be other life changing decisions that are made on behalf of us all by people such as Merkel who have no children and don't appear to give a damm as to future consequences. The worrying fact for that is that it will affect basically the whole of Europe.

I would urge you and other remainer sto look on youtube at some of the debates in the EU. You might be horrified at what goes on there . Join us 'stupid' ones and inform yourselves.

I did it because the EU is too big and comprised of countries whose economies and societies are too diverse to be served well by this system. I don't want ever increasing political union with countries whose best interests are unlikely to be aligned with Britain's. There are too many failed politicians out there on the gravy train. It was incredibly resistant to reform. People forget now, but there were noises about an EU army - I feared for how things were going. I don't believe fom serves us well or is fair to non EU migrants. Angela Merkel was opening up Europe's borders to thousands of unknown migrants, which I felt was a security risk.
I know that not every problem is caused by the EU - there is a lot about it which is good, but on balance I felt leaving gave us more options for controlling our own future.
In the end I still think that something which is si hard to get out of is something we should never have been do embroiled in in the first place. Previous governments had no right to tie us in to this without people's active consent.

listen to this short clip as an example

Live in a cheap as fuck part of Hull so told constantly I should be a leaver- in truth I cant think of any I know.

That's surprising as Hull voted overwhelming to leave. Do you talk to your 'cheap as fuck' neighbours much?

We are all wc, thick racists so lucky you.

IWannaSeeHowItEnds

Yep, I agree. Amongst other things I fundamentally disagree with governance from further and further away. People feel unrepresented by our own government..is it any wonder they voted out of a system they have even less control over/understanding of/contact with.

I really would love to hear the reasons why educated people voted for leave

I explained my reasons, at length, several times, in previous threads, under different names. But I got tired of being called thick, xenophobic, racist, uneducated, too old to be allowed to vote, and all the other insults that were hurled at Leave voters. So now I just don't bother any more. It's not possible to have a discussion with people who resort to insult rather than listening to alternative opinions.

As for the university educated argument, until the expansion of the mid 1960s, most people didn't have the opportunity to go to university, because there just weren't that many universities. It was only in the mid 1990s that universities expanded to the point that going to university became the norm. And professions such as teaching and nursing required degrees, when they didn't before.

And seeing the standard of written English, and quality of argument, from many people who claim to have, or be studying for, a degree, I wouldn't say that nowadays having been to university is necessarily an indication that someone is better educated or more intelligent than someone who hasn't.