"Can't afford to go back to work"

[sphinxa]

Genuine question ...

I often see people saying they couldn't afford to go back to work because of the cost of childcare when they only have 1 child.

The minimum wage is over £7 and the average cost of a nursery is £5/hr. There's tax free child care or vouchers to reduce that cost.

So what do people mean when they say "my wage wouldn't cover childcare costs"?!

When I went back after my 2nd child, I had two under two and after childcare costs I think I came out with about £50 a month. We decided it was still worth going back to work for the benefits of maintaining my own career, pension contributions, autonomy... and eventually when the kids get their free hours we'll be laughing (hopefully).

If people want to stay at home that's great but do people use "can't afford" instead of "want to be a SAHM"?

Isn't that some sort of indirect discrimination!? Not making allowances for parents so they have to leave.

We both reduced our hours and I changed job so that we didn’t have to use a childminder/child care. The charge per hour was exactly the same as what DH earned per hour. Why were we busting a gut pulling the kids out of bed at 6 each morning to leave them screaming at a child minder and then dash to work as fast as we could because no one in the county opens officially before either of our shifts started? It was a no-brainer really.

I’m really surprised that the national average is £5ph

Childcare is very difficult if either of you work shifts, harder still if you both work shifts, especially if they’re not set and you don’t get your off duty until the week before.

There’s a strange assumption that people are entitled to increased benefits if they aren’t working because they’re home looking after their children.

It is depressing that so many women are feeling forced to give up work. That men are still out earning women to this degree. That women are trained and skilled but have to lose it all if they want a family.

I actually think middle class people are more likely to have a lower wage earning woman post kids.

It's the upper working class or lower middle class women who often need a career, (teachers, nurses etc.) whereas established middle class people I know tend to have jobs not careers then marriage and then kids
They also tend to do masters degrees for interest not progression, have more family support (help to buy a house, bought a car, Uni paid for) and therefore spend their twenties travelling, in education, doing unpaid internships, etc. They think they have the privilege of knuckling down for a career later, and then later realise there biological clock is ticking.

This is a rash generalisation of course.

Just talking about our situation here - if I were to quit work after having DC then yes we wouldn’t be paying 80% of my wage for childcare and I’d have more time with my DC. However, that sort of outgoing is for a relatively short time; both DC are now at school and we’re paying £12 a day wraparound care rather than £80 for nursery, so now we are in a better financial position.

DH works in a sector that has seen a lot of redundancy in recent years (may be more to come post brexit, who knows), and has been made redundant himself before DC. My job is as stable as it gets but highly qualified and rather niche - vacancies are rare, and after a couple of years out of work I’d be considered de-skilled and find it difficult to get back into this career.

Given all the above we decided I’d go back to work and to be honest I’ve not regretted it. I would have preferred to drop a day but told that it’s not possible due to the needs of the service. Not much I can do about that.

We're not entitled to any help from tax credits.

After paying childcare costs, I'm left with £300 of my wages after tax and NI.

My husband works and earns more than me so thankfully that helps

It depends whether you see yourself as having a career or a job. I think having a child (albeit 16 years ago), even though I only had 16 weeks off work, cost me 7 years from my career, i.e. it took me seven years to get it back to where it would have been if I hadn't had one. That bumps up the value of that £50 considerably.

Isn't that some sort of indirect discrimination!? Not making allowances for parents so they have to leave.

but making allowances for parents would be direct discrimination for non-parents!
not all men and women want - or can - have children, whilst should they be penalised?

Having children is still a choice, you know what you are getting yourself into financially.

Taking a career break doesn't mean you lose everything. I took a few years off, I am back at work, I didn't waste anything. If I had no family support, I would still be home frankly.

Of course many people cannot afford to go to work, not everybody has the luxury of a high salary and/or free family childcare!

To me £50 a month really isn't worth missing out on the early years with my children.

I took two years off work, i have a fairly good job and just expected to be able to go back three days a week but those three days a week cost £300 a week for two in nursery, more than I was earning. It was simple maths and I returned when one child started school.

^making allowances for parents would be direct discrimination for non-parents!
not all men and women want - or can - have children, whilst should they be penalised?^

But isn't that the same for pregnancy and maternity being protected then? Employers have to make allowances for those characteristics and it's a choice.

The real issue is that jobs don’t exist for school hours

Want woman to work? Create family friendly jobs. Make schools have before and after school clubs run independently of teacher/staff

Make work pay without the need for benefits - employers should be paying a working wage

Make schools have before and after school clubs run independently of teacher/staff

they already do.
But the hours are still too short - both DH and I leave the house around 7am, there's nothing opened yet, and both of us come back around 8pm, nothing still opened then!

It's also far too long a day for young kids, it's unfair on them. I am sorry, but you don't have kids to turf them out every single day for more than 12 hours a day 5 or 6 days a week, unless you REALLY do not have the choice and it's the only way to feed them.

If childcare costs are more than you would earn then of course you can't afford to work.
Even it being a joint bill, you still lose a full salary.
Surely, that's not too hard to understand.

"I'm acknowledging all the points and have become more aware of different situations of the posters on MN (which I always perceived as middle class). I'm not sure where I was arguing with anyone! "

But the points you made (below) shouldn't have come as news to you.

"-Men are still out earning women.
-Childcare costs are too high.

• Women still make up a high % of the unskilled workforce."

These things have never been a secret.

Personally, I know two families where the fathers stayed at home because they were the lower earners. The principle is the same.

The joint costs argument doesn't really work unless the other parent earns enough to cover those costs and the other bills at no loss.
For example
A earns 5k
B earns 1k
Childcare 2k
Bills 2k
That still leaves 2k as fritter/emergency/personal spending money.

A earns 2k
B earns 1k
Bills 2k
Childcare 2k
They are at a significant loss. Whereas if one of them was a SAHP they would at least break even.

We were in this situation before. OH earned enough to pay for everything and make ends meet. Contributing to childcare meant less money in the pot for bills and other things, which I'd have to make up for. So even if I didn't pay for all childcare costs myself , I still wouldn't see much of my wage.

I'm on a very low wage now, but childcare costs are minimal(£15 a week) which OH pays for so I have my whole wage to contribute and pay for other things.

I'm a staff nurse in the NHS - in order to cover my shifts which where 13 hours spent on the wards and 2 hours travelling finding childcare is impossible. Not helped by the fact that I don't work fixed days. Sometimes I work night duty. The nursery doesn't open till 7.30am and I start work at 7.30am. I work every holiday the nursery isn't open. Childcare is impossible. As a result I have cut my hours because not only would I pay a fortune for childcare places due to no fixed shifts but no one would take my DD the hours or days I need them to. I don't claim benefits but I just about pay my bills every month. It isn't just about the cost of childcare but the availability of antisocial hours cover. After maternity leave I reduced my hours and work weekends where I can so my husband is home to mind DD. It was the only way I could work it out unfortunately. Despite the fact that I work in a specialist area and am a qualified specialist nurse in an area where bed shortages occur because we have no nursing staff to open the beds we have.

I wish there was a nursery around here that charged £5 an hour for little ones!! That would make things a hell of a lot easier.

Where I am in North London, it's £9p/h for a fairly decent nursery and £7 p/h for a place at a childminder's house. That's the cheapest I've found. It reduces a bit for a community pre-school once they're over 2 but the hours are limited.

I have just started a new job. Zero hours contract, slightly above minimum wage (£8.20/hour). So if I do a 4 hour shift, which they usually are, I'll get £32.80. After-school club for my 3 DSes will cost £36 (£6 per hour, per child).

I also have to get there, which is either diesel + parking or bus fare, depending on where I work (different locations). Either option will be around £5. Although one location I can walk to.

Because I have a 0 hours contract I don't believe I can claim childcare vouchers. I am very lucky that the after-school club is DS3's old nursery, who know us well & will take the DC ad hoc, and are familiar with DS2 (ASC) & his quirks & can deal with those.

Then there is the fact that if I earn over £120 per week I will no longer receive Carer's Allowance (£64.60 per week, for looking after DS2 who has ASC).

My tax credits will also be affected by my earnings (we get disability rate because of DS2)

I am making it work so far because I am doing school hours or weekends, when DH or my parents can have the DC. But it's certainly tricky to make any money out of it.

I am very passionate about the job I'm doing & dream of progressing, whether that is possible I don't know, it is public sector & being reconfigured in the next year or 2, so lots of jobs will be lost. I also volunteer doing the same thing.

Well some people can afford to work when childcare eats up all or nearly all of a full wage, that's kind of the point of the discussion. It will depend on individual financial circumstances as to whether its doable and a good idea.

As for the point about shared expense, as always that's a relevant point in some situations and not in others. If it's going to cost you £100 for the lower earner to work and you need that to eat, it doesn't matter if you account for the deficit as £50 per person. Equally, it may well make sense for a different couple with the same £100 deficit to think long term and view it as a shared costs in order to preserve two careers. Neither approach is automatically right.

@WeeTinkerMonkey .. harsh !!
I have friends who won't do menial jobs because they see it as below them and yet they are skint ..
I don't need to work but I do a minimum wage job around the kids because it's better than sitting around doing nothing ..I was brought up with a great work ethic and some people are lazy .. fact !
Of course you can get a job , it won't be wont you studied for or necessary want to do but there is always always work .. or maybe I'm just more employable than you 🤷‍♀️

I think some people can be shortsighted about it, and not realise the impact of removing yourself from the work place for 5+ years can have, we would have been better off in the short term when both children were in childcare had I of stayed home, however, in the 7 years since having my eldest to my youngest starting school I have tripled my salary. I'd be starting from a much lower place if I was to go back now, and that's not even talking about pension contributions etc. Obviously I'm speaking purely financial and few people actually base their decision on finances alone, it's just one consideration which will have more weight on some than others but most will make it fit to what they really want to do.

Shared parental leave is a good step.

The sex imbalance in sahp is multi factorial. It’s partly a biological issue (women need to take at least 2 weeks off but often take a few more weeks understandably to get over birth), partly parental choices/priorities (establishing breast feeding, any follow up clinics involving mother, considering next child in quick succession, male/female preferences not being the same), partly institutional discrimination (poor flexitime policy, gender pay gap).

Affordable childcare would give greater choice to those who wish to go back to work. But financial recognition that sahp’s can be v beneficial to their child (especially those with health problems or premature) would also be good (maybe allowing greater sharing of tax free allowance with partner?).

but there is always always work .. or maybe I'm just more employable than you

Fucking LOL...

Pop yoursen up to Dundee and let those folks know there's always ALWAYS work... It's just them not being employable enough..

I think it’s worth pointing out again that not all schools do wrap round care.
DDs School does none. They have a few special clubs, which you have to be invited to and they don’t run the whole term. Nothing in the morning.
Many of the clubs finish at 4.15pm so not enough to cover a working day.

I found it much easier when DD was in nursery. Now she’s 10 the holidays are impossible.
Holiday clubs are not that common and she doesn’t like the main ones. She’s been to a few special activity days but they were a fortune.
I also find many of the holiday clubs here are 10-3pm anyway and always sports based.

I do work on short term contracts so I have control and can always be off in school holidays.
DH often goes away for work and rarely Home before 7pm so is no good for childcare at all.
It means I have periods of not working but not much I can do.

Almost everyone I know uses grandparents in some way. It’s not just the cost, grandparents also take poorly children and I know a lot who will do a lot of household chores for people.

I think it’s funny on MN when people talk about going back to work FT everyone always says ‘get a cleaner’ which when you aren’t making any money going to work seems doubly stupid.

It is depressing that so many women are feeling forced to give up work. That men are still out earning women to this degree. That women are trained and skilled but have to lose it all if they want a family

This is a very sad thought process! This shows how little value is placed in woman or men who chose to raise their own children.

The increase drug use, anxiety, mental health problems have all declined whilst woman are forced INTO work and thought of as lazy for wanting to make sure their offspring have a decent upbringing surrounded by love and attention -

We FORCE women into work and CHILDREN into nurseries - ponitelss