Son, DIL, money (mine)

[OhdratNC]

I think I might just need to suck this up but would appreciate advice.
DS was made redundant from nightmare corporate job a year ago and is now self-employed so a big drop in income but also a big drop in stress levels. Two DCs aged 11 & 7. DIL is devoted to DCs, has never had a job and doesn't want to work. I'm retired but have a good pension & some savings. I offered to subsidise the household while DS builds up his business but also asked if DIL might get a P/T job so that she could contribute to the shortfall. Suggestion didn't go down well (their relationship isn't great). Some occasional small contributions have been forthcoming but essentially I am transferring 50% of my income each month. I can manage this but it means that I either delay work needed on my house or use my savings. DS is anxious about it too but doesn't know how to get DIL to see that this is unfair. She finds change distressing and tends to be very stubborn and self-centred when she feels cornered, as she probably does in this situation.

No clues as to the small contributions by the DIL, OP?

I hope you come to a conclusion that you are comfortable with.

Good luck OP!

Someone said this pages and pages ago:

"It’s up to you to decided whether you want to give your son money or not, and to decide how much you can afford.

Whether or not DIL has a job is absolutely none of your business.

As far as I can see, the two are unrelated"

Which summed it up so perfectly. It was maybe meant kindly but really you have taken it too far, you actually think you are supporting them and that you "must" do this, that you are FORCED to do it, because your DiL doesn't so x, y or z. Truth is by giving your son that money you now feel you are somehow the third person in their household.

Even if the DiL is an absolute lazy cow, your dishing out cash to your son isn't her fault, you are simply enabling him to shore up whatever it is they have going on and then you both get to blame her

op your so lovely to do this.but ialso worry about your future.with current climate for people getting worse as they get older..and although we always like to think to put our kids first,your saving might become vital for your future too.
you need to talk to them.
could you give time frame so she has enough time to get a job.or for some changes to be made.
I don't think we have enough info here to be fully impartial from both sides.but to be so selfless for your child I think makes you a saint and im sorry your now in this situation of it needing to change.but it does.and you know that.thats why you've come on here.so try to make it work out for you all.im just sorry you've found yourself here.kids wrap themselves through every pore when you have to do thing they wont like.but it shoud be vice versa.and they should be thinking as lovingly of you as you are of them esepcailly after you have given so much.
take care.i know its hard.

I think if she hated her DIL she wouldn't be paying her bills!

She’s not paying her bills. She is keeping a roof over her son and GCs head. She would obviously still do this if she hated DL.

I can’t believe the vitriol towards a SAHM. Meal ticket? Lazy bitch? What kind of nonsense is this? Plenty of SAHMs don’t work whilst they have children in school. Why is this one being blasted as being a lazy gold digger?

Nowhere has it been said that the son can’t find paid work, just that he is choosing not to.

Female cocklodger, that's why @Yabbers. Bet you wouldn't defend a SiL.

What kind of part time job are you envisaging? Part time jobs suited to school hours are actually very hard to come by and almost all will be minimum wage jobs. Presuming they are entitled to tax credits in their low income, her working part time hours would likely just mean they lose the equivalent in tax credits. I know because I'm in exactly the same position. My OH left a very well paid job to start a self employed business. MIL thought the same as you, that it was better for his mental health etc. It wasn't, we suggested with very low income for years, and constantly having no money was not good for his mental health. Eventually after years of this he went back to a high paid job and finds it miles less stressful than the one he left in the first place.

If my MIL had actually encouraged my OH to stop looking for another well paid job rather than one that had better employers, to start a low paid insecure self employed business (no holiday pay, no sick pay, no income if something simple like your vehicle breaks down) and then offered financial support I would have been reluctant to accept probably causing huge animosity st home, and then insisted I start working a minimum wage part time job, I'd be furious.
Mine did keep suggesting I look for part time work despite is explaining it wouldn't help.

I did actually take a part time minimum wage job as soon as my youngest stopped nursing, it didn't help us out financially. It meant I was working most evenings so we didn't see each other, (but my MIL was obviously happy about it).

Unless it's a dead cert this business is going to be a good earner in a few years then I'd be encouraging him to look for a better job. If a better income is a sure thing I'd offer a loan instead with no stipulations.

Don't be subsidising their income I'd DIL won't make an effort to help out.

Nonsense. Myself and my husband are corporate. You just need wrap around care and holiday cover.

yes, expensive paid help as I said in the post. Unless that help is 24*7 at least one partner needs to be able to guarantee being in the country/region and have some work flexibility.

The implication in the OP post was high end stressful corporate - which typically translates as very long hours, travel, erratic hours etc so the other partner will need to be the permanently available one for sick kids, appts, and everything else (probably including his family birthdays).

Most of the men I work with will say freely that they couldn't maintain the work level and quality of family life without one partner effectively sacrificing the career to the other.
I find the casual dismissal of a SAHMs' contributions and sacrifices in this type of relationship pretty shocking. The assumption that she can just drop straight into well paid and flexible work which covers ancillary costs is quite unrealistic. Low paid work is unlikely to see much net gain by the time costs are paid - certainly not enough to support a business venture which has already sucked up so much money.

Mind you, all that said I'm not sure how this high flying job fits in with him doing half the housework as well. Maybe it wasn't such a big job.

I would like to hear the DiL's viewpoint - we don't even know if she is aware of the extensive financial subsidy.

Yes, but circumstances change. There is no longer a corporate income and the DIL therefore needs to step up and help provide for herself and her children.

I haven't said otherwise. In my first post I said she would need to try and find work.

However we know nothing about the nature of this business venture, whether she agreed to it or even if she knows about the subsidy.

Some fairly vile terms have been used here to describe a SAHM based on what her husband has told his mother.

Just imagine:

"Mumsnet, my DD has spent the last 11 years caring for her children and husband to support his career ambitions. This was his choice too, as a result she has no paid work experience and the only work she is qualified for is minimum wage casual which doesn't guarantee cover of wraparound care.

He has put his pay off into a business venture which she does not believe can succeed, put their house at risk (even full time cleaning she couldn't pay that mortgage) rather than find a regular job on a lower status. She recently discovered he has been taking half his DM's income as well."

It could equally be true. OP has not answered the question about how sure she is the DiL knows about the subsidy - probably she trusts her DS.

Maybe its me but I think the DS is a cheeky sod for taking so much from his DM and I've seen people do this to maintain a lifestyle rather than admit the true situation to spouses.

Female cocklodger Lazy Bitch

Based entirely on what her DH says. The DH who won't find a job either but was happy to have her looking after his home during the baby years, and happy enough to take half his DM's pension. Plainly an upright and trustworthy individual.

I would look at the business- is it the sort of thing that is building up, for example say a gardening job and he is gradually increasing the number of clients, or is it really a hobby type job in a saturated market and he is not able to build the business? I think that makes a big difference. I agree in an ideal world your DIL would work too, but you can only control your part in it - handing over the money. You could go for a more gradual taper such as 10% each month over five months. You might also consider whether you should have a share in the business for the money paid so far- if it is the sort of business that has shares. Although it might mean that you are also liable for business losses - so again it comes down to your confidence in your son's business plan. I would either become less involved (cut the money) or more involved (ask questions about business plan etc.) don't just keep pouring in money.

I literally can’t believe one of the previous posters said DIL has been ‘sitting on her arse for 11 years’!

If dc are 11 and 7, she was a SAHM to preschool children until 2 years ago. Anyone who thinks that involves any sitting on your arse has clearly never tried it 😂 most mums I know enjoy working part time to get a break from their DC. Currently 36 weeks pregnant and couldn’t find my arse to sit on it, unless it’s driving one of my kids somewhere.

When my youngest starts school I’m planning on doing some volunteering to try and find something else I want to do, since my previous career is completely incompatible with children. I’ll probably need to do some retraining to start a second career. All of this was agreed with DH before I left my job when I had first, as I knew I wouldn’t be able to go back due to the hours/travelling involved.

I would be mightily pissed off if he suddenly decided a year after our youngest started school that instead I had to take a low paid part time job that would make me miserable so he could start a business. If he got made redundant I would expect him to get another job and support me retraining as we agreed. As far I’m concerned I’m paying my dues now, by doing the childcare while he builds his career.

My point is that couples make these decisions between themselves, not in consultation with their mothers 🤨 my MIL has no idea what agreements we’ve made between us, and I don’t think the OP really does either, she’s making assumptions.

OP said in her opening post that she agreed to subsidise her son while his business got off the ground, which presumably factored in their decision to go for it. DIL had already made it clear she didn’t want to get a job at this point in her life, and son was fully aware of this. I doubt they would have considered a new business to be a viable option if OP hadn’t offered to help.

If OPs not happy to continue it’s fair to discuss that and give them notice of that fact so that they can assess how they move forward together as a couple.

What is not fair is people calling the DIL nasty names or claiming she’s a ‘shit mother’. There’s zero evidence about what kind of mother she is.

The OP should save her money so she can help out her son if he ends up getting divorced.

You’re giving your adult son 50% of your monthly income? There are. I words

Bet you wouldn't defend a SiL.
I have no idea what you’re saying here? Are you suggesting if I had a SIL in that situation I wouldn’t defend her? Because I absolutely would. And I would be reminding my brother that he has a family he agreed to provide for and he can’t stop doing that just because he fancies fucking about starting his own business.

The DIL refuses to provide for her own children and herself, even when her DH was made redundant.
Her role is SAHM, that IS her providing for her kids. MIL makes no mention of what DIL does with her day, other than to suggest she is slovenly. She drops them to school, perhaps they come home for lunch, she picks them up, maybe takes them to after school activities. Of course OP will be back to tell us she sits watching TV all day and does absolutely nothing but I know plenty of SAHM of children that age who I wouldn’t label as lazy or “cocklodging” (hideous language) and I expect MIL hasn’t a clue what she does all day.

I have never been a SAHM, both of us work full time, but it is absolutely ridiculous to suggest a SAHM isn’t providing for her children. The man chose not to go back to a salaried job and is fucking about starting a business when there is a mortgage to pay. Why is she expected to suddenly change her own lifestyle, which they very likely agreed on, because he doesn’t want to have the stress of a job? I’d love to give up my job and start a business, but I’ve a mortgage to pay. And what type of job do you think she will get, for a few hours a day, having been out of the workforce for at least 11 years, which is going to compensate for the loss of a corporate salary? The “utter bollocks” is the vitriol being shouted against a SAHM on the say so of a woman who clearly hates her.

Not only is the DIL supposed to do as decided by the OP and her son but apparently about 80 percent on this thread think they've got the right to tell her what to do also.

DIL is an adult human female. I think she can decide her own responsibilities and responses to those, seeing as only DIL is aware of all the facts pertaining to her own personal situation.

All the people demonising the woman on a few snippets from her MIL is quite shocking.

I cannot help but laugh. So many of you telling a woman what she should do, a woman who has no knowledge of this conversation put online by her admittedly biased MIL.

A MIL who gives money to her son, who she has encouraged to put his own happiness above supporting his wife and children, and seems to think it entitles her to control everybody in her son's family unit by the sound of it. OP hasn't said how much it is or if DIL even knows about the money "gifts". It could be hundreds or thousands, it could be eighty quid. My MIL once lent us a fiver on a Wednesday, got it back on a Friday/payday, yet somehow we managed to get a bollocking from various family members about how we shouldn't have let MIL give us hundreds of pounds of her pension money. She never gave us one pence, ever, but that's not what she told everybody else. I'm shoving my experience in only as an example of MIL with selective memory syndrome.

Fucking hell.

Give them money, then mind your own business.
Or
Don't give them money, then mind your own business.
And
Stop interfering with your son's work choices.
And
Stop thinking you have any right to tell DIL what to do with her life. She is not ever yours to command even if you gave her millions.

Someone with two school aged children is happy to take half your income indefinitely? Says a lot about the kind of person she is . Stop the money today . Let them sort it out themselves .

Son in law @Yabbers. You wouldn't defend a man in that position.

Says a lot about the kind of person she is and presumably a lot about her son too, no?

@Bluelady Yep, I absolutely would. If he had given up 11 years of working life to be a SAHD because they agreed to because wife was a high flying corporate, then she decided she wanted to start a business. This would mean a big adjustment for him and the children, totally change their lives and in any case, his money still was unlikely to pay the mortgage? It has nothing to do with gender at all. You don’t change the rules half way through the game. It would be different if the OP had said the son had looked extensively but couldn’t find work, then you all muck in. But this is because the poor wee lamb can’t hack it in the world of work.

I would also absolutely defend a man in the same position, any day of the week.

Frankly I don't believe you. How long does child care give you a free pass? Until the youngest leaves home? Then what? My dad bitterly resented my mum not working outside the home. It's certainly not something I'd be comfortable with.

I am absolutely astonished that people are even attempting to defend the position of a grown woman who is refusing to pay for her own children. It's indefensible.

Being a SAHP is all well and good if the bills are being paid, but they're not. And that is not automatically the man's responsibility.

Women like this make me despair for us ever hoping to achieve equality; on one hand some of us are demanding the right to equal pay and on the other, there are those demanding to be kept, pampered and not having to work, just because they're female.

Offer to double what DIL brings in to a maximum level. If she brings in nothing you give nothing.