Why would you discourage a highly academic child from attending uni?

[WickedGoodDoge]

Just having a vent.

We went to the annual DH aunties Christmas get together where the mean aunties (with the exception of the one nice one) really excelled themselves this time. We had all sorts of judgements about our parenting, but actually, what stood out the most was this exchange between one particular aunt and DS:

Aunt: “Do you know what you want to do after you leave school?”
DS(16): “I’d like to study Maths at uni.”
Aunt: “Well, university isn’t for everyone. You could just get a job or an apprenticeship straight from school.”
DS: “I really like Maths and I’d quite like to study it.”
Aunt: “But university isn’t for everyone. There are other options. You should look at the other options. XX did an apprenticeship straight from school . University isn’t for everyone.”
Me: “No, he’s going to university.”
Aunt: “But university isn’t for everyone.”

It went on and on and on. I know there are other options. I fail to see why any would be better for DS, Fortunately DS saw the humour in it and spent much of the car ride home doubled over in laughter. I just get worn down by it and dread these get togethers.

For context, aunty and her DC are the only people in DH’s family (including DH) to have gone to university. She and the other aunties have been telling me that “university isn’t for everyone” since DS was 8. DS is a straight A student- we’re in Scotland where we sit Nat5s which I think are roughly equivalent to GCSE’s? He loves school, is highly academic, currently wants to become an actuary and does truly love Maths.

She’s a freaking secondary school teacher . WTF would she be so hellbent on discouraging DS?

Vent over.

Actually this time last year he liked Philosophy better. He had a bit of a shock the first week of Higher Math but jumped into it and is completely and utterly enthralled by math now. Prelims in two weeks time so I suppose that will give an indication as to whether it really is the right choice.

WickedGoodDoge

Which universities allow advanced entry with AHs? I’ve worked in undergrad admissions at Edinburgh Uni and now work in admissions at one of the Glasgow universities and AH is counted at the same level as Higher.

For what it’s worth, I think he should do his degree and then take it from there. I did my HNC and degree (and am now doing my Masters) while working full time, which was the right move for me, but it sounds like he has a clear path that he has considered seriously. I had no idea what I wanted to and didn’t return to education until I was 24!

(I only ask because I get a lot of enquiries about advanced entry, either with AH or an HNC/D. It seems to vary hugely and we are quite tight with it - an HNC isn’t even guaranteed to get you into year one of our programmes 😬)

I work for one of the companies listed above (as an actuary) and although we do do an actuarial apprenticeship it seems to be for new graduates on the trainee scheme - not school leavers.

I know about 100 actuaries (conservative guess - dh occasionally mutters “do you have any free ds who are not actuaries”) and as far as I know they all have degrees.

Not all have maths degrees though. Some have maths and physics! (And to be fair I know two chemists, a couple of engineers and one geologist who are now actuaries. We like to embrace diversity!)

I don't think any young person should be dissuaded from undertaking a degree if they are academically able!!

It's not just about the degree; it's the life experience! Eldest lived in Europe for a year as part of her languages degree. Second will undertake a year in her chosen industry as part of her degree. They meet the greatest number of people they will probably ever meet in their lives. The social side is great for them as well as the academic.

These kids will probably end up working into their 70s the way things are going. There's no rush to get on the treadmill, is there? Anyway I think very few do a degree and leave it there; most have to take a further vocational qualification. Lifelong learning, people?

I wouldn't have missed my 4 years in uni for the world. I didn't directly use my BA Hons degree in my career, but I needed a degree to get into it. I took professional qualifications and a Masters in HRM.

I don't believe that taking a degree is ever a waste of time.

A degree in a STEM subject is very versatile. I think your son is to be encouraged and Auntie is an idiot. I bet she doesn't even have a degree actually, back in the day a lot of teachers got certificates in teaching, though I'd have thought most of them would be long retired now!

amusedbush DS just rattled off a list to me- e.g. St Andrews, Aberdeen, Dundee, Heriot-Watt etc. I’ve only cross-checked one to see if he is spouting rubbish (so can’t guarantee all), but found the St Andrews details here:

www.st-andrews.ac.uk/subjects/mathematics/mathematics-bsc/direct/

It’s NOT something I would encourage- only mentioned it because if he does well in his AHs, I don’t think the jump to first year would be as bad as the other poster indicated.

WickedGoodDoge

I think completing first year gives a good grounding and should definitely be encouraged. I jumped from an HNC to third year (Napier Uni) and it was a huge adjustment. While it worked out for me, I would discourage anyone from skipping ahead!

I think AH will prepare him well for first year study and I’m sure he’ll do brilliantly

For info. Teacher training college in the 70s was not the same as university. They were affiliated but not a university faculty in the same way as they are now. As I recall, for primary education you did a three year course leading to a certificate in education with an optional fourth year to convert it to a degree. I’d be surprised if your aunt has a degree herself, not that it matters, but I doubt her motives I’m afraid.

Myimaginary I don’t know. She talks about her teaching degree so I’d assumed she ha a degree but I don’t know where/when she got it. She’s early 60s (definitely not 65 yet- DH thinks she might have retired last year) which would put her graduating round about ‘77/‘78 maybe?

I’d be surprised if your aunt has a degree herself, not that it matters, but I doubt her motives I’m afraid.

In England, that would be.

In Scotland for secondary teaching you did have to have a degree followed by a year of teacher training or, in some cases, a BEd which was university and teacher training combined. So if she's Scottish she'll have a degree. The exception would have been Home Economics or Technical type subjects.

So what actually IS actuary?

It's become very fashionable to say this recently. I find it quite sad. Young people these days will be working until they're over 70, why push them into starting even earlier?

The other thing I think people should consider is international comparison. If we manage to get out of Brexit or get a soft Brexit we might still have some freedom of movement and it would be much harder for British youngsters to compete in a European or global jobs market with no degree.

"Teacher training college in the 70s was not the same as university. They were affiliated but not a university faculty in the same way as they are now. As I recall, for primary education you did a three year course leading to a certificate in education"

Yes, but the aunt is secondary school so this is not so relevant.
However, I think that getting into teacher training in the 60s and 70s was similar to getting into university now and I don't think that primary teachers of that age group are any less academic than the ones who have degrees now.

Agreed, Gwenhwyfar!

Interesting thread about being an Actuary. Scottish. UK fees change all this for our kids though.

However, I think that getting into teacher training in the 60s and 70s was similar to getting into university now and I don't think that primary teachers of that age group are any less academic than the ones who have degrees now.

I have to disagree. Teacher training college was often the option for people not academic enough for university (at a time when a much smaller proportion of school leavers went to university). Entry requirements were much lower. That's not to say that academic people didn't go to TTC, but it wasn't a requirement. I think the standard of teachers now in the profession is much higher.

Your DS is capable of being an actuary and loves maths yet she thinks he should not do a degree? Jesus wept.

It sounds like she doesn't want anyone else in the family to be more successful than her side.

My mum was a teacher in the 70s and she was incredibly intelligent. She took the 11 plus at 9 years old and was in the top 5 in London. She won a scholarship to boarding school as a working class girl. Her friends who were teachers, male and female were all extremely intelligent and intellectual. What I do think is many women who went into teaching and qualified in the 50s and 60s would now chose medicine, law or other professional field. I think women were not encouraged to think about alternatives to teaching. It was an obvious profession for intellectual women at the time.

A while ago I saw some historical data on 'leavers destinations' for DD's girls' grammar school back in the 50s or 60s ... whereas now it's mostly very or pretty good unis (inc a fair few Oxbridge and med school), back then iirc the commonest options were teacher training college and nursing. I'd take a bet that the corresponding boys school sent a good number (if not as many as now) to uni back then.

While this particular aunt seems to have some peculiar attitudes, I wouldn't diss earlier generations of women schoolteachers in general.

"Teacher training college was often the option for people not academic enough for university (at a time when a much smaller proportion of school leavers went to university). "

Sometimes, but it was much more difficult to get to university so they wouldn't be the same as someone who couldn't get into uni now if you see what I mean.

Apprenticeships aren’t for everyone either. My strength has always been English, what apprenticeship could I have done to suit that? So I went to uni as your son will and excelled.

I do agree with PP that suggested as a secondary teacher she’ll be tired of the post Blair generation being solely fixated with uni. There’s now a belief for many that you’re not worthwhile without a degree which is obviously absurd.

the BBC has apprenticeships if you are good at English actually...there's also admin, marketing, printing, social media, advertising, radio and more.

It's not just construction/mechanics/hairdressing/childcare any more.

She’s right. There are many other options available. Clever academic children at academic schools are often put on a sort of “train track” leading to university without thinking about other possibilities. Well done auntie!

I think the standard of teachers now in the profession is much higher.

I strongly disagree, as far as my own subject in my part of the country is concerned.
Obviously there are exceptions but in general teaching is not attracting good graduates in my subject.
Their subject knowledge is poor, adequate for the early years of secondary but no further, and their English also leaves a lot to be desired.
They do the minimum they can get away with but are promoted simply because of the lack of candidates for promoted posts.
The situation is woeful. I hope it's better elsewhere.