Where children really better behaved in the past or do people remember with rose tinted glasses?

[username5555]

This is inspired by a video online whereby a toddler was having a massive tantrum on a 8 hour flight.
A lot of the comments underneath basically were how terrible a parent the mother was and how in their day the child wouldn't have dared behave like that.
What is the alleged difference? What are we not doing that we did then? Or do people only remember the good parts and forget their children also behaved like that.
I personally as a mother of a toddler found the comments awful. I suspect the mother was not having the time of her life either.

even a spanking!

HahahahahahHahahahahahHahahahahahHahahahahahHahahahahah......ah, just catching up with this thread. What a doozie.

What European Court? Outlawed punishment? You're talking bollocks. Smacking isn't even illegal in England nor many European countries, it's just out of fashion. Some have chosen to outlaw it, including Scotland.

Also, somebody else said about not saying no because it's too negative. If you choose not to say no, then generally, you're doing one or two things instead - you're either being more specific with your instruction - so rather than running up to the four year old yelling "NOOO!" you say something like "Put DOWN the scissors NOW". Or you have an alternative such as "Wait" or "Freeze" or "Stop", which you just happen to prefer to no because it sounds nicer. Or it's the thing where instead of saying "No shouting" you say "Inside voice please".

What you don't do is just never ever say no or moderate any behaviour ever, because that would be bonkers, not to mention completely impractical and ridiculous. How, please how, would anybody survive a day with under-fives without either the word no or a working alternative? I mean just think about it for five seconds, it doesn't make any sense.

Honestly though I think people just enjoy getting riled up about other people's parenting so they pick up on a small detail and insist some utter random thing about it in order to make it sound ridiculous so they can take the piss out of it.

I think it's rose tinted spectacles. People love to sit back and criticise from a safe distance, they forget what an all consuming slog parenting can be. Apparently my generation were fantastic kids who had respect beaten into them, according to many Facebook memes. Bollocks, some kids were badly behave back then and some weren't, just like now, the only difference is we have more understanding and diagnosis as to why and smacking is less socially acceptable. People also conveniently ignore well behaved kids in favour of tutting over a tantrum.

I think there is an element of rose tinted spectacles. Bad behaviour has always occurred, but the worst of out of control behaviour would have been pushed into borstals or institutions away from society. Children had more freedom to be childish away from adult company.

I have decent DCs with boundaries (most of the time...). DS1 isn't a "naughty" child as in he disregards boundaries for the fun of it. I never have to worry about what his day at school was like... except he bottles up his frustrations and can struggle to manage them at home. We're early in the stages of SEN referral process.

DS2 is very different, sunny, cheerful, hardly tantrumed, but more likely to ignore a boundary. Tonight he broke a special object. He knew he shouldn't kick a ball in a certain room and was naughty to do it. I probably would have been smacked or at least a good shouting at for it back in the 80s. DS was so "sad" (his word) at what he had done, imposing any other consequence was pretty pointless. He knew he was in the wrong and was very upset by destroying something special that he liked. All that was needed was to affirm link the behaviour and the consequence and remind him that's why the rule was in place.

In the light of some meltdowns that DS1 had in the summer, I was talking to DM about behaviour and SNs. Some "high functioning: SNs will be more evident today because of the pace and intensity of life and how stimulating the world is. More crowds and traffic. Loud, near constant background noise. Having to lug young children with you everywhere because they can't be left in the car/ house on their own. Greater educational demands (DS has had extra literacy "boosters" at school since y2). He really struggled from April to September with SATs being the worst point in the middle, and it took a long time to unwind. Going back 50, 60 years would have suited DS, clear boundaries and more time to roam free and collect sticks. Actually it probably wouldn't because his dyslexic tendancies wouldn't be recognised...

What I find very frustrating is the wall that some parents put up in anyone else interacting with their DCs. How I loathe the line "you're not my mum". That does no one any favours. Children are a part of society and teachers, shop staff, waitresses, passers by should be able to say something when a child's behaviour has directly impacted on them. My DCs are decent and very, very rarely need pulling up by anyone else because I'm normally able to deal with them, but it's good for them to realise that their actions have wider consequences on surrounding people.

I was a mum to three lively small boys in the seventies.They were smacked, like most of their friends. Not frequently and not hard, but if I could go back in time, I would never, ever smack, or allow their dad to, either. It still upsets me to think about it.

Many parents (not all) just don't seem to want the hassle of disciplining children.

Nor do they want others, teachers etc. to discipline them either! Always remember that for many 'Discipline is what other people's children need'.

Children are given too much and led to believe that anything is possible - by parents, teachers and society. Silly things like every kids meal should come with a toy! The message that you should be constantly rewarded. Lack of competition in school (I was the least sporting child in the world, but I knew that even if Nigel could win every race on sports day, I was at x position in the class according to my report so I was achieving in a different way). Life is competitive and unfair, being ranked at school means you can work on your strengths whether that be sport/academic/arts/practical skills. DD2 is 15 and throughout primary her teachers told her she (and all others) could do anything she wanted to. She told me she was going to be a research scientist at NASA - I said that science was a good ambition, there are lots of science jobs, but she was convinced she’d work at NASA. Secondary school came as a huge shock, she is in her last year and the reality of not always getting the best marks in tests has hit hard. She has withdrawn and it’s hard to get her to try - she’s already dropped a subject, and gone from triple to double science, and if she gets 5 grade 4/5s she’ll be lucky.

Kids did have tantrums back in the 70s - I have photographic evidence of the scowl on my face and firm grip of my mother at a family wedding! Apparently I’d gone crawling under the pews and thrown a strop when brought back.

I wish I could re-do the early years of parenting - I did the same as everyone else and allowed TV after school and access to my phone for games. Lack of opportunity to be bored creates a need for constant eneterrainment.

An interesting thread. Not all children tantrum, but children have always tantrumed as long as there have been children. My uncle was born in 1947 and we have all been told the tales of his outbursts.

My own DC1 started having tantrums from 10 mo and I was completely unprepared for it. None of my others did. My youngest didn't speak until about 15 mo and used to bite instead of tantrum. That was embarrassing.

What only seems to have been touched on in this thread is that adults these days don't seem to know how to behave. People are all too ready to kick off, and full of their "rights". Again, I know there have always been dodgy people but I don't remember signs in hospitals, shops, GPs and elsewhere even back in the 90s telling people that bad behaviour won't be accepted. When did adults get the idea of mouthing off or attacking doctors or teachers?

In a lot of ways things are much better now. My DC were born late 80s and I can remember the attitude of the doctors then which was that they were right, you were wrong and you could just do as you were told. I've had (unfortunately) a lot of time with doctors and hospitals in the last 10 years, and I still find it odd when they ask your permission to feel your stomach etc.

I think a lot of people pander to children more now. Especially middle-class parents. Witness the amount of Performance Parenting reported on here. Parenting is some kind of sport at which you must win .

I was at the airport and on a long flight last week and able to spend some time observing children. Some parents dance round their children the whole time trying to please them, so of course their dcs think of themselves as little emperors.

Regarding the telling off, children come in various types. Some, whether you reason with them or reprimand them, will be quite compliant and eager to please. Many will be too young to "get" reasoning. They just can't process what a parent is trying to get across, and it soon becomes just white noise. Others will get it all too well, see it as a weakness, and run rings round a hapless parent.

I thoroughly agree with the "Anyone can achieve anything" mantra of the last decade or two. No they can't!! You can have a jolly good go, if you have an aptitude for something, but telling every kid they can be an astronaut, scientist, Olympic athlete etc etc is ridiculous and setting them up for disappointment.

I see it again and again on here and in RL, about "anyone can have a shot at Oxbridge". Well, yes, you can have a shot. With the proviso that you are very clever. Michelle Obama visiting inner London schools (no one travels outside the M25 to find deserving kids) and telling everyone they can go there... not helpful.

So I think by selling kids a pup you end up with the "Millennials" who don't understand why their uni (sic) degree is not the passport to fame and fortune and even worse having to listen to their parents telling you why the world has been so unkind to Josh/Rebecca.

I'm definitely one of those millennials. I never expected to be a huge success but I did believe that if I behaved at school, did my homework, passed exams, went to uni, got a job I at least be able to make a decent life for myself. It's been a bitter pill to swallow.

I think children are brought up to rule the household these days , not the parents. Parents run themselves ragged trying to placate their children rather than expecting them to find ways to amuse themselves or actually sit quietly and listen. They interrupt adults all the time, charge around making a lot of noise without regard to how that impacts on others, don't say please and thank you and demand things as a right in many cases. Not all. I spent several hours with a 6 year old yesterday and she was delightful. However, my niece who is the same age is a nightmare because her parents literally never say no.

My family is perhaps rather unusual as we have a family tradition of talking a great deal about children, what children do, how children behave, what children say. I married into a rather similar family. This means dh and I between us have an oral record going back to at least the 1890s in 2 different countries & different social settings, mine involving a large extended family. General conclusions:

c 3/4 of the worried behaviour threads on MN are things I was already prepared for because of what my mother did in 1936 or my gran said in 1902- so small children probably don't change that much

some children in every generation (maybe one or two) have had specific issues and needed to be dealt with in very specific ways; this has nothing to do with general societal trends

with the caveat that you may have to be inventive in the way you deal with specific issues/troubled children, it is generally possible to bring children up to behave in public

child-rearing is work in progress - getting to your goal may take time (hence the plethora of family anecdotes)

smacking has not been used in my family for at least 5 generations and we still manage to turn out children who know how to behave at dinner parties

a bit of challenging on the way doesn't mean either that you are a shit parent or that your child is beyond redemption (my grandmother who lied about her naughtiness c. 1902 and my mother who cheeked her aunt round about 1936 both grew up into highly respectable citizens)

modelling seriously, seriously helps: if you consistently show that you yourself feel a strong need to behave well in public even when you don't feel like it, there is a good chance it will rub off

a certain amount of family loyalty also helps: not thinking your child is always right, but not talking about them as if they were little shits either; showing that you like spending time with them; listening to their pov even when you are going to enforce your own; understanding them doesn't mean caving in

I'm definitely one of those millennials. I never expected to be a huge success but I did believe that if I behaved at school, did my homework, passed exams, went to uni, got a job I at least be able to make a decent life for myself. It's been a bitter pill to swallow.

Making a decent life for yourself in those circumstances doesn't seem an unreasonable expectation, what has happened to prevent that?

Back when I was a child if you played up you were called out on your behaviour. Nowadays there’s always an excuse for it.

"a parent could theoretically get in trouble for spanking their kid. Even as a form of discipline!"

Even as????

I do think expectations are very low for some children. Parents aren’t aware of how well young children can behave if they are taught well, and the problem there is that it never ends.

Oh he’s 3 he can’t be expected to sit still
Oh he’s 6 those outbursts are normal
He’s 9 fighting at school is just boys will be boys
Oh he’s 12 that violence is just his hormones
He’s 18 and still learning about relationships, he didn’t mean to hit his girlfriend
Oh he’s 25 and in prison, where did I go wrong as a parent?!

But extreme but you get the drift.

Whether behaviour is worse overall I am not sure, but I don’t believe reliance on screens is helping anyone.

But extreme but you get the drift

Extreme? It's ridiculous! Let your 3yr olds fidgetyness slide and watch them turn into a criminal?

I expect we'll see a wave of violent crime as all these children become adults then. Or maybe we won't and they'll turn into normal law abiding decent human beings like most children do.

If you visit other countries, it is normal for children to sit at the table with their families for long meals and learn to behave. i don't see why children should be inherently different in the UK. Parking chidden in front of a screen is seen as normal at mealtimes now. T hey don't learn to talk and interact with adults, notice how adults behave etc.

It’s the times that have changed not the people.

If you introduced a 4 year old Victorian child to the higher standard of living and the technology that most British kids experience, their behaviour would change.

My dad grew up in Post War Leeds, slum clearance was underway and he remembers, that when he was about 5, been chased by a group of older kids trying to hit him with bricks.

I think children were probably expected to be submissive to adults around them but with other children it was more of a Lord of the Flies experience.

When I was 6 ( mid 70's) I was hit on the head by part of a brick when a group of slightly older children were throwing bricks around on a piece of local wasteground. There were children as young as 3 on there without an adult in sight.

That was the same summer my 4 year old brother got hit by a car (thankfully only bruised). We were again playing out without any adults watching us.

chopchopchill

My point was parents repeatedly ignore and excuse shite behaviour at all ages and then wonder where they went wrong when their adult children can’t function in day to day life. You see it on here all the time!

Nothisispatrick
I understood the point you were making.

I believe the foundations if discipline have to set fro the toddler stage. You can't expect to allow a child to get away with bad behaviour and then suddenly try to change that when they are 14 and wonder why they don't respond. It's too late by then and teams like the one I work for with young people are left to pick up the pieces.

I'm not talking about smacking or being harsh with young children but being consistent, not being afraid of saying no. having boundaries and appropriate, achievable consequences in place. As I keep saying, it's about showing " love and limits"

NaturalBornWoman, what prevented it was simply not being able to earn enough money to move out of my childhood home and have a life of my own, it sounds daft now but growing up I always assumed so long as I worked full time I'd be able to earn a living even if modest. It never occurred to me that there were jobs that don't pay enough to live on.

I got lucky, married someone earning more and we are on the property ladder but I really wanted to achieve this for myself.

Work just feels like a total waste of my time. I kept working so as not to be judged as a layabout by others more than anything.